Penokee Hills

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FJD
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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby FJD » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:22 pm

After reviewing the Bulletproof site, I wouldn't be shocked if the level of force being projected was toned down fairly quickly. My guess is the mining co. got hit, they called in security immediately, and once the security company does a site assessment, it will tone down the level of security to match the need. Armed guards will probably stay, but I would be a little surprised if the carbines did.

Oh and based on the fact that every face on that web site seems to be blurred out, I'm guessing the masks will stay.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby wack wack » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:23 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:After reviewing the Bulletproof site, I wouldn't be shocked if the level of force being projected was toned down fairly quickly.


Right wing ideology posits that truth is defined by strength of conviction, not facts. This is the "double down" gang at work. Once they find our they're wrong, or against public opinion, they'll double down and do it more.

In fact, it's already begun:

Paramilitary-style guards 'are going to stay,' mining company vows

FJD
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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby FJD » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:49 am

wack wack wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:After reviewing the Bulletproof site, I wouldn't be shocked if the level of force being projected was toned down fairly quickly.


Right wing ideology posits that truth is defined by strength of conviction, not facts. This is the "double down" gang at work. Once they find our they're wrong, or against public opinion, they'll double down and do it more.

In fact, it's already begun:

Paramilitary-style guards 'are going to stay,' mining company vows


I don't know that it's fair to say Gogebic is wrong. It's rather disingenuous to claim that the protesters are non-violent when infact some have been violent and may use violence again. Gogebic's workers and equipment were violently attacked by Earth First (who then bragged about it's success). I don't know that they need a paramilitary level of force, but the company does have a responsibility to defend their workers and a right to protect their property. Given the size of the area being protected, long arms aren't completely unreasonable, though I still think sidearms would suffice. The purpose of a security force is to server as a deterent, not an assault force.

Hopefully EF won't use the non-violent protesters as cover if they attempt another assault.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby wack wack » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:00 am

My point, Francis, is that the level of force is not going to "tone down", it's going to escalate.

FJD
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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby FJD » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:39 am

wack wack wrote:My point, Francis, is that the level of force is not going to "tone down", it's going to escalate.

It's possible, though if it does, my guess is it will come from the EF side, not the guards. This isn't Blackwater or the National Guard at Kent state. And I don't think putting guards in is really an escalation by Gogebic. They reacted to an ecalation by EF in a completely legitimate manner.

Baring intervention by EF I suspect the issue will settle down in a few weeks when the protesters realize that the guards aren't out to get them, and their rights to protest aren't being curtailed (by the securtiy force). There aren't any reports of the guards getting in peoples face, or overreacting to protests. In a few weeks most people will probably not even pay much attention to them.

I still would expect the paramilitary forces to either leave or remove themselves from public view. The original public guard face was armed with sidearms while the commandos were apparently out scouting "illegal campers", it doesn't make much sense financially, to have them just hanging around, if guards with sidearms will suffice for force projection.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:59 am

They could start by losing the camo and wearing normal security guard uniforms. The location of their headquarters and the location of the job site they're protecting is well known. To try and camouflage those would be silly, so for the guards to wear camo looks equally silly.

The camo gives the idea they're trying to sneak up on people unnoticed, which would be an offensive not a defensive activity. We can agree they're present as a deterrent, not an assault force.

This is bad public relations at the very least.

Donald showed that part of the efforts against another project objectionable on environmental terms turned out to be flyovers (taking pictures, I imagine). Is Gogebic going to try and claim control over the airspace above their site next? Then do the guards get antiaircraft weapons?

Let's see a little more professionalism and a little less of what someone else called Rambo. Gogebic isn't going to be able to hide whatever they're doing out there forever, and they need to start by admitting it. Like it or not, they're subject to regulation and even though they've gutted a lot of the rules governing their own actions, some still remain. Those include some very powerful treaty rights governing water that flows from their worksite to Lake Superior.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby FJD » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:17 pm

snoqueen wrote:They could start by losing the camo and wearing normal security guard uniforms. The location of their headquarters and the location of the job site they're protecting is well known. To try and camouflage those would be silly, so for the guards to wear camo looks equally silly.

The camo gives the idea they're trying to sneak up on people unnoticed, which would be an offensive not a defensive activity. We can agree they're present as a deterrent, not an assault force.


Based on the new's stories, the guys in cammo were in fact trying to sneak up on people.

Gogebic spokesman Bob Seitz laughed at the suggestion that the company would remove the guard detail, which he said was hidden in the forest photographing illegal campers before they were noticed at a test drill site recently. The campers were believed to be potential vandals, Seitz said.

“That’s why none of those (guards) was visible, is because they have been monitoring people on our lands,” Seitz said


Though I would argue that photographing the campers is indeed more of a defensive activity then an offensive one. It's also an activity I would expect of a professional security force that knew how to work with law enforcement and the legal system.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby Michael Patrick » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:15 pm

Firm providing armed security at mine site may not be licensed here

n out-of-state security company providing armed guards for a mining site in northern Wisconsin is not listed in online state records as being licensed to provide private guards inside Wisconsin.

The company's president said Wednesday that Bulletproof Securities holds a number of federal and out-of-state licenses for its experienced staff and has applied for the Wisconsin license in question, but he wasn't able to immediately say whether Bulletproof has actually received that Wisconsin license to operate as a private security firm in the state.

"The paperwork has been submitted to the state of Wisconsin but I don't know where the (process is)," Tom Parrella said Wednesday, declining to say more about the license but promising that his company's compliance official would provide more information to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel as soon as possible.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby FJD » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:23 pm

You beat me to it Michael!

If I recall correctly a security guard license is tied only to the guard himself, however unless it's changed, an armed security guard license is also tied to the company the guard works for, and requires a 40 hour training course plus annual re-certification. I don't see how the company could have licensed armed guards in WI without being licensed themselves.

snoqueen wrote:And when they hired security, they might consider going with a state or local firm for public relations reasons

Not to mention, a state or local firm would know the rules they have to follow.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:41 pm

Mining companies in the past have used private security to kill and intimidate, but it was usually against striking union workers, not the general public.

Bloody Harlan County.

Matewan Massacre.

Ludlow Massacre.

And they didn't have modern assault rifles back then.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby FJD » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:17 pm

So because of events that happened back in your youth, you don't think the Mining companies have a right to protect their workers from violent groups such as Earth First?

What do you have against the workers Henry?

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:22 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:So because of events that happened back in your youth, you don't think the Mining companies have a right to protect their workers from violent groups such as Earth First?

What do you have against the workers Henry?

Boy, you certainly put a lot of words in my mouth. Do you really think the mindset of those who own mining companies has changed that much in the years since? Harlan County mining corporations still treat their workers like shit.

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:06 pm


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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:17 pm

If I recall correctly a security guard license is tied only to the guard himself, however unless it's changed, an armed security guard license is also tied to the company the guard works for, and requires a 40 hour training course plus annual re-certification. I don't see how the company could have licensed armed guards in WI without being licensed themselves.


According to this Milwaukee J-S article, you recall correctly but it's complicated:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/firm-provi ... 53381.html

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Re: Penokee Hills

Postby Donald » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:51 pm

I'm not sure why Earth First is involved. Wisconsinites beat Exxon, and it wasn't with Earth First tactics. It was by wedding a professional approach to a political approach. A bunch of yahoos vandalizing stuff ain't gonna do the cause any good.

In most states everything that is at all surface disturbing is disclosed, and you can look at the stuff and copy it in county and state offices. If there are test holes, they have to disclose where and when they are going to be drilled and how they are going to be drilled and reclaimed. Some states allow specific hole location information to be withheld from the public for a time as trade secrets, but it has to be on file with the regulators. If they are drilling monitoring wells to study groundwater, that's all going to be provided to regulators, and you can go in and look at it. If people want to find out what going on, a better plan is to visit state and county regulators weekly. Ask to see submissions by the company and all correspondence. Develop a professional relationship with the regulators and you'll find out a lot of stuff. Also, find professional geologists, hydrologists, etc. to provide expert advise. Start building a professional case now, because they are going to try to do whatever they can to truncate the process.


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