The movement to destroy public schools

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Bert Ernie
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Bert Ernie » Mon May 20, 2013 1:15 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Competition leads to focus on the customers: parents and students. Not the unions.


The One wrote: From what I've seen, competition favors the customers which in this case are students.


I can say from substantial experience working on both sides of this debate that this is flat out false. Competition does not, in most instances, lead to focus on "customers"/students in the context of education. More often, it leads to capitalistic Darwinism. Fiscally efficient and/or cheaper does not always lead to better. My own experience has shown me that running an educational system as you would a business hardly favors students. They are not "customers." Learning is the product of schools. Can and should we do better? Yes. Privatizing education is not the means to that end. There are countless examples of this (take a quick look at many of the proprietary education giants).

Stebben84
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Stebben84 » Mon May 20, 2013 1:25 pm

jjoyce wrote:Those seeking to de-fund public education are not interested in competition making education better and they're not interested in closing the achievement gap. They're interested in busting the teachers' union for political reasons and having their taxes drop.


I feel it goes beyond that as Henry alluded to. Here in Madison, 2 of the non-religious private schools have already said they won't participate. I think that leave 1 maybe 2 non-religious private schools left and a whole lot of religious ones. This is about funding religious school and(as Ned would say) indoctrinating religion on kids and filling their pockets with public money. There is no evidence that these religious school offer anything better than public schools. On the contrary, they often have little to no arts, music, or humanities courses and under perform math and science(which they often want to teach in their own special ignorant way)

Anyone who believes those pushing for this are "doing if for the children" is full of it.

Igor
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Igor » Mon May 20, 2013 1:35 pm

jjoyce wrote:The best prepared kids in the country, without a doubt, are those lucky enough to go to school in well-financed, large, suburban public school districts. What's the best high school in our area? Middleton? Sun Prairie? Verona? All are palaces, built with massive influxes of cash generated by huge growth in those communities over the last 30 years. They literally invested in their schools to an alarming degree. Have you ever been in Middleton's Performing Arts Center? Ever seen their football stadium? Their Project-Lead-The-Way computer design labs?


I agree. The winning formula is probably to put teacher salaries and benefits around the 90th percentile of districts, and spend the difference on buildings, programs, equipment, maintenance, etc. Madison has bet on 99th percentile compensation making up for shortcomings in other areas. Obviously you have to have an affluent district - but I think Madison has the wherewithal to do what Verona and Middleton do. They just don't have the willpower or foresight.

(A side note - when Lussier Stadium was built by LaFollette, I remember a school official - possibly the Superintendent - commenting that it was easier to obtain private donations for capital projects than it was for the general fund. He seemed genuinely confused by that fact, which to me indicated a remarkable level of tone-deafness for an educated person)

As far as the vouchers, I can't believe all of the focus is on the achievement levels. If I were a parent in that situation, the first thing I would want is to make sure my kid was as safe as possible, and was less likely to join a gang, get involved with crime, etc. Add in the additional opportunities afforded to students in the other schools, and what parent is going to care if the academic results are a wash?

Bert Ernie
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Bert Ernie » Mon May 20, 2013 1:38 pm

The One wrote:If the problem is "bad" schools don't have enough money, please tell me the amount needed to make it a "good" school


There is a growing body of research out there on just this topic. Note what Arne Duncan has to say about teacher pay and outcomes.

I can't for the life of me understand how one can argue that education should be "about the students," and then try to formulate an argument against higher salaries and better contracts for teachers and educators. Wouldn't better contract terms result in a deeper, more qualified pool (if I'm forced to apply your capitalistic business model on education)? In virtually any industry? You can't continue to cut costs -- particularly cuts to most important element of the educational experience (teachers) -- and expect to either develop or maintain a high quality product. Seems sort of counter intuitive to me.

I always scratch my head when Walker touts "putting money back into the classroom." What the hell is more important in the classroom than teachers?

Igor
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Igor » Mon May 20, 2013 1:47 pm

Bert Ernie wrote:.Wouldn't better contract terms result in a deeper, more qualified pool (if I'm forced to apply your capitalistic business model on education)? In virtually any industry? You can't continue to cut costs -- particularly cuts to most important element of the educational experience (teachers) -- and expect to either develop or maintain a high quality product. Seems sort of counter intuitive to me.


A strong contract ensures retention of both good and bad teachers. If your 6th grade math teacher sucks, high pay will indeed attract more qualified applicants, in 30 years.

The NFL has exponentially more money to examine employees, including watching them perform for 4 years in college. They still make poor hires quite often. It is not really fair to expect that a school district can predict which teacher will be engaged at age 50 based on what they have done prior to age 25.

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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby jjoyce » Mon May 20, 2013 2:34 pm

That the competition stuff is spouted with a straight face so often (particularly by those who boast an understanding of markets, economics and business that they don't really have) is funny. If you want to provide a better education, then compete with other professions to get smarter people to become teachers. Beat the private schools at their own game, which includes paying teachers so well they have no need to unionize. Why ignore that very obvious business lesson and embrace the shaky, unproven and blatantly false one?

Also this: The reform crowd loves to throw out Bill Gates' name, when convenient. Here's what Gates wrote recently in the Washington Post:

Of particular concern is the possibility that test results alone will be used to determine a large part of how much teachers get paid. I have talked to many teachers over the past several years, and not one has told me they would be more motivated, or become a better teacher, by competing with other teachers in their school. To the contrary, teachers want an environment based on collaboration, in which they can rely on one another to share lesson plans, get advice and understand what’s working well in other classrooms. Surveys by MetLife and other research of teachers back this up.


Competition in the education sphere only sounds good if you want public education to lose and are motivated to game the system to ensure that it does. That nicely describes a group of people active in this debate.

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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby MarcoPolo » Mon May 20, 2013 3:03 pm

When it comes to religious schools, especially Catholic, I don't think it has anything to do with a viewpoint as much as it is:

1) Dioceses are flat broke because of the abuse scandal and can't keep their schools open, which has led to budget cuts and school mergers across the church.
They need the money vouchers provide to keep the lights on.

2) The steady decline in large Catholic families, which has led to a decline in both donations in the pews and tuition at the schools. Look at increases in poor students of color attending formally largely white Catholic schools using choice/vouchers to cover the cost.

Meade
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Meade » Mon May 20, 2013 3:25 pm

There is nothing wrong with indoctrination. What's wrong is indoctrination into poor or empty doctrine.

The problem that children have in getting a good education - public or private - is primarily due to family disintegration, out-of-wedlock sex and childbirth, and divorce. Public schools are no longer free to teach the doctrine of sex only within marriage, fidelity, personal responsibility to provide for and protect one's own family, and the moral imperatives of the Decalogue. In fact, more and more, public schools teach children the very reverse of the Ten Commandments.

Those children then graduate and some go into careers in public education: a vicious circle which is at the root of the real movement that is destroying public schools.

Stu Levitan
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Stu Levitan » Mon May 20, 2013 3:44 pm

Contest over. We have a winner.

Meade
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Meade » Mon May 20, 2013 3:54 pm

Where else do you think cultural insensitivity comes from, Stu?

Hint: it's not from private schools.

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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby snoqueen » Mon May 20, 2013 3:56 pm

Public schools are no longer free to teach the doctrine of sex only within marriage, fidelity, personal responsibility to provide for and protect one's own family, and the moral imperatives of the Decalogue. In fact, more and more, public schools teach children the very reverse of the Ten Commandments.


So you got born again over the weekend?

Way to go, dude.

Those among us who are not part of a Ten Commandments religion -- and we count too, you know -- think the public schools are doing a fine job of being culturally competent.

Why is sex outside of marriage wrong for people of the age of consent? I'd like to hear your reasoning.

As a woman over 60 who has never been married, all I can say is you better have a good explanation.
Last edited by snoqueen on Mon May 20, 2013 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

HawkHead
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby HawkHead » Mon May 20, 2013 3:59 pm

Public School Now Teaching:
1. Mutliple Gods.
2. To use Gods name in vain.
3. To purposefully go out and work on the Sabbath.
4. To disobey their parents.
5. To kill people.
6. To commit adultery.
7.To steal.
8. To lie.
9. To want their neighbor's house or possessions.
10. To want their neighbor's wife.

lukpac
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby lukpac » Mon May 20, 2013 4:06 pm

Meade wrote:In fact, more and more, public schools teach children the very reverse of the Ten Commandments.


"You shall have other gods before me."

"You shall make for yourself a graven image, and any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, and that is in the earth beneath, and that is in the water under the earth; you shall bow down to them and serve them."

"You shall take the name of the Lord your God in vain, as well as mine (I'm not actually your God)."

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it unholy. Six days you shall sit around on your ass, and do none of your work; but the seventh day is not a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall do some work (if you feel like it)."

"Don't honor your father and your mother, that your days may be short in the land which the Lord your God gives you."

"You shall kill."

"You shall commit adultery."

"You shall steal."

"You shall bear false witness against your neighbor."

"You shall covet your neighbor's house; you shall covet your neighbor's wife, and his manservant, and his maidservant, and his ox, and his ass, and everything that is your neighbor's, including his 60" flatscreen and his hot daughter."

That's what all the kids learn these days, right?

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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby FJD » Mon May 20, 2013 4:14 pm

HawkHead wrote:Public School Now Teaching:
1. Mutliple Gods.
2. To use Gods name in vain.
3. To purposefully go out and work on the Sabbath.
4. To disobey their parents.
5. To kill people.
6. To commit adultery.
7.To steal.
8. To lie.
9. To want their neighbor's house or possessions.
10. To want their neighbor's wife.


Looking at this list, I guess I'm not altogether surprised that Meade is confusing the CW for schools.

Ned Flanders
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Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon May 20, 2013 4:23 pm

The left is more than welcome to it's Godless, values/morality-neutral, balkanized-America dream for society. It's certainly done wonders to this nation in the lasts 40 years :roll:

The problem lies in the left's need to have "everyone" accept this via shared institutions. There's certainly no argument that schools, government and the mass media have served as wonderful crowbars for the left to cram these positions down the throats of hapless taxpayers and children over the last few decades.

Fortunately, the internet has allowed other voices to end run these institutions and band together to advocate for their views. One of these views is to make education dollars portable, enabling parents to afford their children the type of traditional education the left so despises. Nevertheless, these views are as legitimate as any on the left.

As with other institutions, the left has turned schools into a cultural battleground, a job-creator for unions and a cash conveyer for the Democrat party. Of course they're upset about school choice. You would be too.
Last edited by Ned Flanders on Mon May 20, 2013 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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