WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.
you must be joking
Forum Addict
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:05 am
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby you must be joking » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:10 pm

All I have ever asked for in this topic is for all medical facilities to have the same scrutiny by the State and Federal governments. That the information gained in surveys by either one would be required to be posted for all to see on line. In this manner anyone using any medical clinic could have the information gained in those surveys to see if they wanted to use that particular medical clinic or not. That the government acting on behalf of the people could see to it that deficencies identified in the surveys could be corrected or in some cases the medical facility could be closed in order to protect the public interest.

What I have seen in return is arguments that indicate to me that access is the most important factor in this debate and anything to limit access must therefore be bad, including regulations that are common in all medical facilities but not so much in abortion clinics.

What I cannot understand is why wouldn't anyone want to know what kind of medical facility they or a family member is going to? How well does that particular facility do in providing a level of care commonly acceptable to all in society?

The only way to determine wether or not the facility meets levels of care commonly acceptable to society is for them to be surveyed and the results of the survey to be published for all to see.

But apparently access is more important.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 13882
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:43 pm

If all you really want is for a survey to be published, I think we have no dispute. It might be a whole heck of a lot more information than what we can get about individual doctors (from the State Medical Society, which is not a governmental entity at all) or what we can get comparing hospitals (and their rates) today. Consumers need more comparative information about health care in general.

If access is the issue, I think a ruling that hospitals must provide services to a patient being transferred from an abortion clinic might solve the problem. Is there a good reason the clinic doctor has to be a practicing member of the hospital? (This is a real question, not a trick.)

penquin
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1523
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby penquin » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:29 pm

you must be joking wrote:All I have ever asked for in this topic is for all medical facilities to have the same scrutiny by the State and Federal governments.


That sounds good, but as it stands now only abortion clinics are getting singled out for these type of regulations. Despite what you claim, these laws&regulations aren't "common in all medical facilities" at all, rather they are only being forced upon clinics that perform a particular medical procedure.

A doctor at any other medical clinic isn't required to have admitting privileges at the nearest hospital. Dentists aren't required to show you the x-ray of a tooth before pulling it. Some states have waiting periods for abortions - that is the most patronizing regulation of 'em all. Are there any other medical procedures where the gov't forces a waiting period upon the patient?

you must be joking
Forum Addict
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:05 am
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby you must be joking » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:49 pm

penquin wrote:
you must be joking wrote:All I have ever asked for in this topic is for all medical facilities to have the same scrutiny by the State and Federal governments.


That sounds good, but as it stands now only abortion clinics are getting singled out for these type of regulations. Despite what you claim, these laws&regulations aren't "common in all medical facilities" at all, rather they are only being forced upon clinics that perform a particular medical procedure.

A doctor at any other medical clinic isn't required to have admitting privileges at the nearest hospital. Dentists aren't required to show you the x-ray of a tooth before pulling it. Some states have waiting periods for abortions - that is the most patronizing regulation of 'em all. Are there any other medical procedures where the gov't forces a waiting period upon the patient?


penquin,


Go to any, and I do mean any health care administrator at a family practice clinic, a hospital, a nursing home or others and tell them about "these laws and regulations" you claim don't exist "in all medical facilities" like theirs. They may smile a bit and then they may just take you to their office and show you the volumes and volumes of rules and regulations they must comply with and the documentation to show they are in compliance with those rules and regs.

When your done with the administrator go over and tell the environmental director the same. Again, they will show you the volumes and volumes of rules and regs they must comply with and the documentation to show they are in compliance with those rules and regs.

As far as specific medical procedures; there are in any medical facility specific protocals written out in your policies that must be followed each and every time you do a specific patient related task. Further, you must show the surveyor you have documented those protocals while doing the specific patient related task as the surveyor wants it documented.

Depending on what type and where you are in a medical facility the amount of "red tape" involved in getting anything done gets greater and greater as the needs of the patients dictate.

rabble
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 9469
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby rabble » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:54 pm

Unless you can find a regulation requiring a doctor at any other medical clinic to have admitting privileges at the nearest hospital, you haven't rebutted anything.

The existence of other regulations for other clinics, whether it's a lot of them or not, does not disprove the point that clinics who provide abortions are being singled out.

peripat
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:59 am

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby peripat » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:59 am

And the fact that medical facilities- like other places of business- have copious numbers of internal rules they are required to follow means pretty much nothing to the rest of us and shows us nothing really

penquin
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1523
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby penquin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:18 am

you must be joking,

You seem to have misunderstood what is trying to be said. I'm not claiming that other medical clinics don't have any rules&regulations to follow, rather I'm pointing out that only abortion clinics are required to follow these particular regulations (admitting practices to nearby hospitals, forcing an ultra sound on the patient, asking the patient if anyone is forcing them into the procedure) that are being discussed.

Or are you of the beleif that the law also requires those same things for other medical clinics? Please clarify...

(Side note: I hope many-many women, when asked if anyone is forcing them to have an abortion, reply with "Not the abortion itself, but Scott Walker and his GOP is forcing me into a different medical procedure.")

you must be joking
Forum Addict
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:05 am
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby you must be joking » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:02 am

penquin wrote:you must be joking,

You seem to have misunderstood what is trying to be said. I'm not claiming that other medical clinics don't have any rules&regulations to follow, rather I'm pointing out that only abortion clinics are required to follow these particular regulations (admitting practices to nearby hospitals, forcing an ultra sound on the patient, asking the patient if anyone is forcing them into the procedure) that are being discussed.

Or are you of the beleif that the law also requires those same things for other medical clinics? Please clarify...

(Side note: I hope many-many women, when asked if anyone is forcing them to have an abortion, reply with "Not the abortion itself, but Scott Walker and his GOP is forcing me into a different medical procedure.")


penquin,

So what your saying is that because abortion clinic owners have to abide by a couple of regulations that other medical facilities don't, that makes these regulations evil? But what about the literally thousands of regulations that other medical facilities have to abide by that un-surveyed abortion clinics don't?

I would say it is up to those of you who belive that abortion clinics are getting worse treatment by having to abide by these few regulations prove that having to abide by this small number of regulations is far more onerous than the thousands regulations the rest of the medical facilities must comply with.

Since abortion clinics in the State of Wisconsin are not surveyed, there is no way you could ever prove that point.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 23484
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:06 am

Got some examples of regulations that apply to all medical clinics except those that perform abortions? Specifics please, otherwise you are just blowing smoke (again).

you must be joking
Forum Addict
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:05 am
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby you must be joking » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:34 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Got some examples of regulations that apply to all medical clinics except those that perform abortions? Specifics please, otherwise you are just blowing smoke (again).



Henry Vilas,
I don't have to prove anything. Your the one who is saying abortion clinics are being imposed upon with regulations. It is now time that you prove to me that abortion clinics have more regulations or regulations that are more onerous than that of other medical clinics.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 23484
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:46 am

You claim there are thousands of regulations that apply to all medical clinics except those that provide abortions. No, you don't have to prove that, but you sure are full of bullshit.

rabble
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 9469
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby rabble » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:11 am

I think you must be joking is joking.

His argument is

"yes, a clinic that provides abortions must have admitting privileges to a hospital and other medical clinics don't, but this is not singling out any single type of clinic because the other clinics have to follow other regulations."

Because of course, any regulation is just like any other regulation. They're all regulated, so nobody's being singled out. Just because they have different regulations for clinics that provide abortions doesn't make any difference.

Nobody would use that kind of argument unless they were joking.

There are no regulations that turn the tables, ie there are no regulations that other clinics must follow but abortion clinics don't.

you must be joking
Forum Addict
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:05 am
Location: Madison
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby you must be joking » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:39 am

rabble wrote:I think you must be joking is joking.

His argument is

"yes, a clinic that provides abortions must have admitting privileges to a hospital and other medical clinics don't, but this is not singling out any single type of clinic because the other clinics have to follow other regulations."

Because of course, any regulation is just like any other regulation. They're all regulated, so nobody's being singled out. Just because they have different regulations for clinics that provide abortions doesn't make any difference.

Nobody would use that kind of argument unless they were joking.

There are no regulations that turn the tables, ie there are no regulations that other clinics must follow but abortion clinics don't.


rabble,

I think the point can be made by going to the following site:

From NPR "Pennsylvania Tightens Abortion Rules Following Clinic Deaths"
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/28/175459510/pennsylvania-tightens-abortion-rules-following-clinic-deaths

"In 2011, the Gosnell case was mentioned frequently as Pennsylvania's General Assembly passed a law that put stricter requirements on abortion clinics. Now most clinics in the state are held to the same standards as outpatient surgery centers. That means abortion clinics must have doors and elevators that can accommodate a stretcher in case something goes wrong.

For some clinics, such as Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania, that meant expensive remodeling."..........."Now that the law is in effect there are five fewer abortion clinics in Pennsylvania, though it's unclear whether the stricter regulations were the only reason they closed."

Pre Gosnell, there were no inspections of abortion clinics in Pennsylvania for years and years. The Grand Jury in the Gosnell case said that "The politics in question were not anti-abortion, but pro-,” That inspecting abortion clinics would be putting a barrier to abortions for women.
Post Gosnell, once abortion clinics in Pennsylvania had to come up to the same standards as outpatient surgery centers, five abortion clinics had to shut their doors.

As we saw in the Gosnell case, both the National Abortion Federation and Planned Parenthood knew of what was going on in Gosnell's clinic and did nothing to stop it. Planned Parenthood even continued to refer patients to his clinic knowing what was going on there.

As I said before, having the abortion industry regulate itself is like expecting B.P. and Shell to regulate offshore drilling. A lack of regulatory oversight means that any set standards are ultimately standardless.

penquin
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1523
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby penquin » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:16 am

you must be joking wrote:So what your saying is that because abortion clinic owners have to abide by a couple of regulations that other medical facilities don't, that makes these regulations evil?


Looking back I don't see where the word "evil" was ever used. Rather, I'm pointing out that these particular rules&regulations seem to be designed to hinder patients rather than help them.

But what about the literally thousands of regulations that other medical facilities have to abide by that un-surveyed abortion clinics don't?


Which one(s) in particular are you referring to? Please be specific.
For example, a regulation that discusses the proper methods of handling soiled adult diapers probably would be needed in a nursing home but not so much in an abortion clinic.

Also, are you aware of any other medical procedure where the patient is required, by law, to state they are not being "forced" into it? And I'm also interested in knowing what other clinics in Wisconsin that doctors are required to have admitting privileges at a nearby hospital.

You implied earlier that those laws are in place for other clinics and medical practices, but my research indicates that those two laws are actually targeted only at clinics/doctors that perform abortions. Can you please clarify...thanks.

PS - reading your last post you seem to be saying that there is no regulations/oversight at abortion clinics what-so-ever. Is that truly what you're claiming? Please clarify that too...thanks.

Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 6073
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm
Contact:

Re: WI Right To Life Proposed Abortion Restrictions

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:51 am

http://m.host.madison.com/wsj/news/loca ... 4d928.html

Doctors who perform abortions would have to arrange for the burial, cremation or medical donation of the fetal remains under a bill introduced Thursday in the Legislature.


Gimmicks. YMBJ, until you realize this, you've just got your head up your ass. You have also never really addressed the discussion about admitting privileges. You keep talking about regulating clinics, yet admitting privileges have NOTHING to do with that. Here's a quote from the chief sponsor of the legislation.

The bill's chief Assembly sponsor, Rep. Pat Strachota, R-West Bend, said the ultrasound provision is designed to help the woman bond with the fetus by seeing it and convince her to save it. As for the admitting privileges, she said they're meant to ensure an abortion provider can follow up with a patient at the hospital if there's an emergency.


http://m.host.madison.com/news/state-an ... 6f305.html

The bills own author doesn't talk about regulations and that is because they could give a shit about regulations. All they are trying to do is find backdoor routes to end abortions. Look at her comments about "bonding with the fetus"

And by the way, Grothman was a co-sponsor of this bill as well as the author of the fetal burial bill.

Gimmicks, but hey, be my guest and keep getting fooled by their empty rhetoric.


Return to “Local Politics & Government”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests