Obamacare Ruling for Adults

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pjbogart
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby pjbogart » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:35 pm

Comrade wrote:David, your assertion is incorrect. The court ruled that this is a tax. It is not a penalty.

Henry is wrong as usual. It is part of the code. It will be in your return and enforced by the IRS.

This was a very very foolish thing to do and will be abused by both conservatives and liberals for generations to come. Sadest part of all is that insuring the uninsured could have been done very simply and easily with no loss of freedom for anyone. All we had to do was increase Medicare to include them.


I don't quite understand why we're splitting hairs over whether this is a "tax" or a "penalty." Is it just political wrangling? People really hate taxes but they're ok with penalties? If I withdraw early from my 401k, don't I pay a penalty? Isn't that penalty also a tax?

But congratulations on coming to terms with the wisdom of a single payer system. Not only are you officially a Democrat, you're a liberal Democrat.

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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:00 pm

Don't forget as long as you have earned income you pay your Medicare percentage and Social Security right off the top of your paycheck. Those are already mandatory, even if they're government programs and won't benefit you until some future date. If those have already been mandatory for years, why is it so different for under-65's to now be expected to buy private insurance if your income is high enough, or pay the extra tax/fee/penalty/whatever?

Remember people receiving Medicare are already expected to buy supplementary private insurance unless their incomes are very low, so being expected to buy insurance as part of a national healthcare plan is not new in the US.

If you truly hate insurance, pay the fee. I am concerned the fee/fine/tax is not high enough to deter people from going uninsured, even when fully phased in, and there is no provision I have seen to raise it with inflation. And remember, you can't pay a fee and wiggle out of the Medicare payroll deduction. So you have an extra option with the new healthcare law you don't have with Medicare.

People now on Medicare who do not in a timely manner buy supplementary insurance face higher future premiums (as an incentive to buy their supplementary policies), so having a particular insurance choice carry an extra fee/cost/premium/tax/penalty as a deterrent is not new either.

I'd have rather seen Medicare extended than the private sector handle this, same as Comrade, but the highest priority is getting healthcare to as many people as possible who currently can't afford any. All this "what to call it" and hairsplitting is disingenuous and beside the point.

Younger people are are now expected to buy health insurance same as Medicare recipients already were. Period.

With more people in the pool of insured, with the 80-20 rule in effect for how insurance companies have to use the money they collect, with possibly fewer people using the emergency room for routine healthcare, and with fewer people not getting care until their conditions are intolerable, I think we will see insurance rates go down somewhat (adjusting for inflation) in the next few years. In addition I hope we will see fewer medical bankruptcies now that people can't be disenrolled for pre-existing conditions, denied insurance, and the like.

With any luck, we will see outcomes (such as longevity and infant mortality) improving. Right now I believe we're even with someplace like Croatia regarding infant mortality, for instance. I am sure someone will look this up for me and set us all straight.

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:42 pm

wack wack wrote:First, I'm guessing the reason you get no response is that I'm about the only leftist here who doesn't have you on ignore.


Ain't that a trip? But very instructional for the readers--69 views, yet not one response. ;) Every time something like this happens, it just demonstrates the vacuity (is that a word? Henry?) from the left.

Remember when I posted a subject on "will the teachers vote absentee in the Gov. Walker recall election before they leave for their summer vacation?" I 'lost' most leftists on that one, a few even stating that now I was on their 'ignore' list. Geez, one would think I gave away the top secret KFC chicken recipe or something.

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:19 pm

Comrade wrote:Honestly, I find the ruling to be deeply disturbing. While I agree with their interpretation of the mandate being illegal in terms of the interstate commerce clause, I find their notion that it is acceptable as a tax to be very troublesome.


This goes far beyond healthcare.

Waaaaaay beyond government mandated health care.
But ol avowed socialist barack did promise to "fundamentally change" this country. This is the big one.

The amendment to the constitution granting the power of taxation is clear.

Very true. But in order to have government take some of your money, there has to be a transaction of some sorts, you have to make money, sell an item, live in a fixed residence, etc.
People will now have to pay a "tax" just for living in the US as a citizen.

Hmmmm....watching dual survival as I type this and the last sentence got me to thinking. Maybe roberts viewed obamas government health care payments as a form of "property tax", ya know, even though you're not linked to a specific location with utilities, infrastructure, etc. you are still residing within the US.

So taking socialist thought, if you benefit from it in any way, you must pay for it. So this is the "tax" for "living" in the US proper as everyone here benefits from the US Military, so we all pitch in.

Which then brings up the question....how will the 35 million illegals here then pay for their fair share of this tax?

The avowed purpose of that was to be a funding mechanism for the government. However, we are now using that as a weapon to bludgeon citizens into behavior the government wants.


I do believe you're on to something, comrade.
So, with private insurance, if you smoke, have 20 speeding tickets, don't pay your bills, etc. your rates will be higher because statistically speaking, your "cost" will be more. So, being a private business that has to make a profit in order to survive, they raise their rates on you, the individual and your own lifestyle choices. You can choose those if you want, but your rate will reflect your freedom to choose.

Where does this leave government health care?
Will we all be charged different rates?
If so, then the older, alcoholic, diabetic, cancer survivor would pay a higher rate for the same mandated, complete coverage as a 27 year old (the magic year a child turns into an adult).

Isn't this one of the reasons that socialists (leftist democrats) want government health care, so we all can get it for "free"? I mean, pay the same, EQUAL amount? Why should a 27 year old pay the same as a 67 year old obese smoker?

:D I think this is where your idea comes in. In order to mandate all us individuals as much as possible, equality and all that jazz, then we must regulate/mandate as much up front as possible.
And this is where all the leftist democrat fixation on what we eat, what we drink, what we smoke, what we drive, what kind of light bulbs we have, etc. come on.

Think about it. It makes perfect sense for further regulation (control) of individuals lives to take place. How else can we all be equal under such circumstances?

The government can now justify using taxes to control people.

The ICC that the new democrat party uses to regulate every individual choice has been deemed not applicable (per roberts), yet he opened up the "tax whatever you wish" door.

But, he is consistent here. To legally own a machine gun or a sawed off shotgun, or a silencer, one has to apply for a "tax stamp" from the ATF. The argument can be made that this is a transaction, but is this not a "tax" upon the use of the Second Amendment? So should every "reporter" or BS blogger also have to pay a "tax" in order to write, speak, or video record?

Both sides of the isle will build on this abuse in the years to come.

To me, this is a great example of why the Tea Party is so valuable. The democrat party has turned into a clueless granola/union mob group of conjobs. The republicans were little more than paycheck collecting, get alongers. The Tea Party put them all on notice last election. Long overdue if you believe in our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

To me, thursday was a very sad day. It was not with the price paid, to achieve this particular objective.


Very historic day on many levels. I don't think a lot of people truly appreciate how the US (and thus, most of the world) changed on that day.

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:"Taxes are what we pay..."


So then, socialized obamacare was a tax all along?

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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:26 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Comrade wrote: Should taxes be used as a mechanism to control people? I sincerely believe that to be an abuse of power.

Like the "sin" taxes on booze and tobacco?


Good point. But those are sales taxes, a taking of a portion of private property (money) in a transaction between two parties.

BTW, the whole reason why politicians (non socialist democrats) are NOT in favor of a flat tax is they want to use the tax regulations as a means of directing people, institutions, etc.
Tax credits, and even taxation itself is a means of exercising control if you think about it, either in direction or outcome.
Or just plain bribery (solindra/gm anyone?).

TIF--tax incremental financing comes to mind.

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:28 pm

david cohen wrote:I don't believe we are being "taxed" for failing to get an insurance policy. We are being "fined" for violating a federal law.


OK, so then you agree the supreme court's ruling on this was wrong?

Detritus
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Detritus » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:30 pm

I see Cornbread finally found someone his age to play with.

Bwis53
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Bwis53 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:33 pm

So Corny, what's your solution? Let the poor and sick be free to die? What do you think we should do instead?

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:33 pm

Comrade wrote:David, your assertion is incorrect. The court ruled that this is a tax. It is not a penalty.

Either that or he thinks the supreme court was wrong in deciding socialized obamacare is indeed constitutional. ;)
I won't hold my breath for him to do a 180 on that one because his logic just trapped himself. I guess this is why so many of the new democrats put me on their ignore feature. :D

Henry is wrong as usual. It is part of the code. It will be in your return and enforced by the IRS.


VERY interesting point. Zerobam's socialized insurance scheme couldn't work w/o funding...and he hired an obamaload of new IRS enforcement agents or something like that?

So where does this then leave the 35 million illegals in this country if the IRS is an enforcement mechanism for this new, huge tax on everyone? OK, not everyone......

Very interesting stuff.

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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Bwis53 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:35 pm

So Corny, what's your solution? Let the poor and sick be free to die? What do you think we should do instead?

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:41 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:How does the IRS know if tax filers have coverage?

Can you get a health insurance policy w/o your SSN?
Or individual state ID? (DL)?

Do you know if the democrat party is now going to push for "No ID needed" health insurance too? They don't want a being to have one to vote for an allocated vote, so why do it to get medical treatment?

What about people who don't need to file?

If they make under 10K, the still need to file, but the IRS doesn't really give a fluke about them. And if the make less than that amount, they're on some sort of government program(s), so they do need that evil, racist(!) ID. Do you know how much data is out there on everyone? The financial data collection of people started under Reagan and went into overdrive during clinton's anti-terrorist/money laundering 'rampages' *.

*rampage: a word almost always used for a shooting of two or more people, no matter the details. Just thought it'd be funny to use it in other, equally silly contexts.

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:43 pm

bdog wrote:I looked around for a neutral site that explains how all this is going to work but have not been able to find one yet.

Just follow my posts. You can get the other side of the story from basically any mainstream media source, the ap, or the white house stenography corps...

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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:47 pm

pjbogart wrote:I don't quite understand why we're splitting hairs over whether this is a "tax" or a "penalty."
Just a little thing called the US Constitution. That's what make this nation unique from all others in the world.

People really hate taxes but they're ok with penalties?

so can congress make you pay $100 a month if you don't purchase broccoli? Congress can penalize you for NOT doing something, not buying something?

Now we all truly understand why zerobams stated why he views the US Constitution and Bill of Rights as a "negative document"--it doesn't state what the government CAN do to individuals. It's a government limiting document, one that favors individual freedom and liberty.

BTW, this is why leftists are such fascist pigs. Think about that one.....

Cornbread
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Re: Obamacare Ruling for Adults

Postby Cornbread » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:49 pm

snoqueen wrote:Don't forget as long as you have earned income you pay your Medicare percentage and Social Security right off the top of your paycheck.


So then obamacare was a tax all along?
So then obama and his clown posse was lying to us all along?


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