Billionaires pay no state tax

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Meade
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby Meade » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:44 am

It's not hyperbole. If we agree that socialism = public control of the means of production and capitalism = private control of means of production, then what is wrong with saying that progressive taxation is socialist? TR was both capitalist and socialist.

Anyway, what is so wrong with socialism? Why so prickly about using the word?

Back to the original topic: How can you blame someone for minimizing their legal tax obligation? For instance, some poor people do it all the time - by choosing to remain poor as a tax strategy. I don't hear you blaming them for minimizing their legal tax obligations. Hypocrites.

jman111
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby jman111 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:11 am

Meade wrote:It's not hyperbole. If we agree that socialism = public control of the means of production and capitalism = private control of means of production, then what is wrong with saying that progressive taxation is socialist?

Well, for one, it's assuming that progressive taxation somehow correlates with public control of the means of production. I think that sort of conclusion would need more support, Larry.

Meade
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby Meade » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:40 am

It doesn't even need to be progressive. Taxing, in any form, is an example of public control of means of production. It is a public repurposing of private capital.

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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:44 am

So what?

DCB
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby DCB » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:42 am

snoqueen wrote:So what?

Therefore, every country in the world is socialist.

peripat
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby peripat » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:47 am

Because, after all, unless you are some sort of farmer/hunter/bandit living off the land and what you can steal from those weaker than you, there is no private capital without public investment.

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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby jman111 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:55 am

Quite the conspiracy theory, Larry: Taxation equals public control of the factories, machines, and tools used to produce wealth. It's no wonder blind adherents to today's "Conservatism" get so worked up, believing BS like this.

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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:07 am

DCB wrote:
snoqueen wrote:So what?

Therefore, every country in the world is socialist.

Maybe not Somalia, as they have no central government to collect taxes. The libertarian dream/nightmare.

Meade
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby Meade » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:03 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
DCB wrote:
snoqueen wrote:So what?

Therefore, every country in the world is socialist.

Maybe not Somalia, as they have no central government to collect taxes. The libertarian dream/nightmare.

The Marxist Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party established itself as the one-party authoritarian government of Somalia in 1977 - the Henry Vilas progressive dream/nightmare. The government became more and more totalitarian (naturally) and the means of production became fewer and fewer until, in 1991, civil war broke out. The Somali Civil War has been going on for over twenty years with no end in sight. What Mr. Henry finds "libertarian" about Somalia is anyone's guess.

O.J.
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby O.J. » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:17 pm

Just replace anti-semite with socialist, and Larry Meade = Uncle Leo

Jerry: Yeah, I got some family backstage. Course my family's nuts; they're
crazy. Yep. My uncle Leo, (quick take of Uncle Leo in bet with Lydia, watching
Jerry on TV. Lydia is laughing, Leo is not) I had lunch with him the other
day, he's one of these guys that anything goes wrong in life, he blames it on
anti-Semitism. You know what I mean, the spaghetti's not al dente? Cook's an
anti-Semite. Loses a bet on a horse. Secretariat? Anti-Semitic. Doesn't get
a good seat at the temple. Rabbi? Anti-Semite.

Meade
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby Meade » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:21 pm

jman111 wrote:Quite the conspiracy theory, Larry: Taxation equals public control of the factories, machines, and tools used to produce wealth. It's no wonder blind adherents to today's "Conservatism" get so worked up, believing BS like this.

jman111, you might find reading John Locke useful. In particular, read his Second Treatise, "Book II", Chapter V "Of Property".

Also, you might find useful Karl Marx's Capital: Critique of Political Economy. You'll see that "the means of production are more than just factories, machines, and tools.

Also, to help you complete your understanding of taxation, read the Supreme Court case McCulloch v. Maryland and pay particular attention to the words of Chief Justice John Marshall and to those of Daniel Webster.

jman111
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby jman111 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:46 pm

Larry wrote:Taxing, in any form, is an example of public control of means of production.

Make your case.
Convince me.

O.J.
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby O.J. » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:09 pm

Our incomes are like our shoes; if too small, they gall and pinch us; but if too large, they cause us to stumble and to trip.
John Locke

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... ke_2.html#

Meade
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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby Meade » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:30 pm

jman111 wrote:
Larry wrote:Taxing, in any form, is an example of public control of means of production.

Make your case.
Convince me.

Financial capital is an input used in production. Taxing me takes my private financial capital and turns it into public financial capital.

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Re: Billionaires pay no state tax

Postby Bert Ernie » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:45 pm

I think a point that someone made (snoqueen?) that was completely ignored and overlooked was in questioning the assumption that higher taxes on the wealthy de-incentivise the aspiration to be wealthy. Is this the case? Do we make otherwise energetic, Type A go-getters into lazy slobs dependent upon the state by asking them to pay more? Do we TRULY squelch effort and ingenuity by taxing the rich more? What does history tell us about that? It leads me to "no."

A second point that hasn't been responded to by many of the more conservative posters on this board: don't the very wealthy have more and pay less than at any other time in history? Isn't the very premise that "the wealthy are paying more" false?
Last edited by Bert Ernie on Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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