What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

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jonnygothispen
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:06 am

gargantua wrote:A lot of it is that most people do think state employees, with their benefits, are overpaid. The one single thing (besides the money from out of state billionaires) that just drove me crazy was the repeated assertions by my conservative acquaintances that the recall was about government employees "just not wanting to pay their fair share".

It was never about that
. It was about being dishonest about his intentions before the first election. If he had been forthcoming, and he won anyway, that would have been it. No recall. I would not have signed a petition if I had not been lied to so egregiously.
Obviously, since they agreed to every concession except the elimination of collective bargaining. That was just another Republican talking point/lie the media let slide by never emphasizing what was actually going on.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:14 pm

Earthling wrote: This was more of a mandate to allow the guy his 4 years that he was elected to serve. Many didn't feel the recall was justified, and I think you saw that in the result.

ding ding ding

My sense was that the recall was a tactical mistake. I came to this conclusion from comments made during petitioning. But really, the damage to Democratic power was so severe, maybe the Dems had no choice but to go for it. So I held my breath and jumped on bandwagon.

I remember after some of the mixed results of other recalls, last summer?, Sly was musing on the radio that he thought it would be better to let Walker simmer in his juices until 2014, that Walker would become more unpopular if people saw his policies play-out. Maybe Sly's political judgement was right.

BTW, I tuned into WTDY 1670 for election coverage last night, and instead of seasoned veterans Sly & John Nichols, we got a dopey neophyte. Horrible start to horrible evening.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Earthling » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:37 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Earthling wrote: This was more of a mandate to allow the guy his 4 years that he was elected to serve. Many didn't feel the recall was justified, and I think you saw that in the result.

ding ding ding

My sense was that the recall was a tactical mistake. I came to this conclusion from comments made during petitioning. But really, the damage to Democratic power was so severe, maybe the Dems had no choice but to go for it. So I held my breath and jumped on bandwagon.

I remember after some of the mixed results of other recalls, last summer?, Sly was musing on the radio that he thought it would be better to let Walker simmer in his juices until 2014, that Walker would become more unpopular if people saw his policies play-out. Maybe Sly's political judgement was right.

BTW, I tuned into WTDY 1670 for election coverage last night, and instead of seasoned veterans Sly & John Nichols, we got a dopey neophyte. Horrible start to horrible evening.


It most certainly was a tactical mistake. One that has greatly weakened the democratic party in the state, and all but cripled the unions. Democrats have dug a trench at the base of the mountain. I don't see how Walker will be beaten in 2014 now.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:50 pm

I don't see how Walker will be beaten in 2014 now.


His thus far pathetic record? A better opponent?

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Ducatista » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:06 pm

pjbogart wrote:What can we do differently next time?


That's exactly why we need to rehash the campaign.

We live in a post-Citizens United world of ALEC and Teaps. We need to adjust our tactics to address those unfortunate realities.

The "should've let Walker simmer in his own juices" stance is great for somebody who won't suffer real harm under Walker's policies, and isn't too concerned about those who might. But there are people and institutions that face real hardship under walker, and I'm glad we at least tried to stave off disaster for them.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Moneyman » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:07 pm

I still laugh at people who are saying Walker only won because of the money.

According to the exit polls, 86% of the people made up their minds before all the commercials, advertisements etc. People decided long ago that they were either A) For Walker B) Against re-calls in general C) Support Barrett D) Hate Walker

Obviously A and B had more votes than C and D. People in general were against re-calls, whether they supported or hated Walker. I know of at least 8-9 people personally who voted for Barrett last time but either didn't vote or voted for Walker because they feel if Barrett won, re-calls would set a terrible precedent. Money could have been a factor, but I don't think it was the biggest factor, not by a long shot.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:14 pm

Earthling wrote:One that has greatly weakened the democratic party in the state, and all but cripled the unions. Democrats have dug a trench at the base of the mountain.


Except the fact that Republicans lost the Senate and we really didn't lose anything. Yes, we lost the election, but he was already governor.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Galoot » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:18 pm

I learned that Mike Tate, beyond any shadow of a doubt, needs to be fired.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Meade » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:25 pm

Ducatista wrote:We live in a post-Citizens United world of ALEC and Teaps. We need to adjust our tactics to address those unfortunate realities.

Your problem is not in your tactics. It's in your ideology.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:32 pm

Ducatista wrote:
pjbogart wrote:What can we do differently next time?


That's exactly why we need to rehash the campaign.

We live in a post-Citizens United world of ALEC and Teaps. We need to adjust our tactics to address those unfortunate realities.

I don't think this particular campaign needs rehashing, or finger pointing, it's very unique. Money didn't decide this particular election, for a variety of reasons.

I agree maybe Dems need an entirely new strategy going forward. The strategy of relying on unions as balance against big money is over.
I have some thoughts on this, but am so far unable to convince myself that any of my ideas will work. One notion is that the Dems become the party that proudly shuns big money. I don't know if that is practical.

Ducatista wrote: The "should've let Walker simmer in his own juices" stance is great for somebody who won't suffer real harm under Walker's policies, and isn't too concerned about those who might. But there are people and institutions that face real hardship under walker, and I'm glad we at least tried to stave off disaster for them.
Attacking the motives of people who disagree with you tactically is foolish.
Show a little humility, your approach did not deliver much loveliness to the peeps.
Last edited by Huckleby on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:34 pm

Galoot wrote:I learned that Mike Tate, beyond any shadow of a doubt, needs to be fired.

The second-guessing I heard last night was pretty questionable. What specifically are you upset about?

What I learned last night was the people of WI don't much care for public employees and their union. Maybe most are for collective bargaining rights, but they are not going to recall a governor over the issue.

The Republicans did a good marketing job, they framed the race as about the public sector unions, and put lipstick on pig (Walker.) They got 39% of union household support, for god's sake!

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Ducatista » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:47 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Ducatista wrote: The "should've let Walker simmer in his own juices" stance is great for somebody who won't suffer real harm under Walker's policies, and isn't too concerned about those who might. But there are people and institutions that face real hardship under walker, and I'm glad we at least tried to stave off disaster for them.

Attacking the motives of people who disagree with you tactically is foolish.

Eh, you're sounding bdoggy again.

I'm not attacking Sly's motive. In fact, I assume it was the same as mine: making sure Walker serves as little time as we can get away with. I question his judgment, as he would obviously question mine for supporting the recall. So?

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Bwis53 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:08 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
I don't see how Walker will be beaten in 2014 now.


His thus far pathetic record? A better opponent?


Yes and yes...

Huckleby
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:14 pm

I believe the results of this election were unknowable, most were confused before and surprised after. And speculating how this or that change of tactic would have played-out is dicey at best. This event was so strange, and not a good basis for generalization.

My interest is where Dems go from here nationally. They have demographics on their side for long term. But that's not enough, and not a certainty.

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby GordonFreeman » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:19 pm

I learned that libs are pussies. Singing songs while shaking your tamborine, get nothing done.


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