"No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

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rabble
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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby rabble » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:56 pm

David Blaska wrote:
lukpac wrote:That would be redundant, as crime is inherently illegal everywhere. As for guns, a sign won't physically prevent somebody from carrying (or using) a gun, but it will make doing so a crime.


If it is concealed, how would one know?

We'll have to remember that one for the next time Blaska complains about the left flaunting the laws of the land.

"It's only breaking the law if it doesn't involve guns." or maybe "You haven't broken any laws till you get caught."

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby jman111 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:58 pm

Just thought of something- will law enforcement employ gun-sniffing dogs to enforce the law in posted/forbidden areas? Will there be support for random checks for illegally-concealed weapons as there is for drunk driving roadblocks?

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby David Blaska » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:06 pm

rabble wrote:
David Blaska wrote:If it is concealed, how would one know?

We'll have to remember that one for the next time Blaska complains about the left flaunting the laws of the land.

"It's only breaking the law if it doesn't involve guns." or maybe "You haven't broken any laws till you get caught."


My mission in life is to help my liberal acquaintances think rather than emote. Law-abiding people who have waited years for the right of concealed carry will NOT disobey the law. Who, on the other hand, will ignore your signs? Class? Anyone?

Let's put it this way, if just one student lawfully carried a gun in the first class the Virginia Tech mass killer entered might not that massacre have ended before it began? Do you really think all the signs in the world would have deterred the Virginia Tech gunman?

Jeremy, you first.

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby jman111 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:13 pm

David Blaska wrote: Law-abiding people who have waited years for the right of concealed carry will NOT disobey the law.

False premise based on unfounded assumption.
Try again.

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:14 pm

Law-abiding people will NOT disobey the law.


Well that goes without saying. What about the people who have waited for years that WILL break the law or do they not exist?

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:19 pm

David Blaska wrote:Let's put it this way, if just one student lawfully carried a gun in the first class the Virginia Tech mass killer entered might not that massacre have ended before it began?


No.*

David Blaska wrote:Do you really think all the signs in the world would have deterred the Virginia Tech gunman?

No.*

Of course, we were talking about being shot by coworkers with concealed weapons, not crazy people shooting up classrooms with unconcealed ones.

So is it safe to assume nobody read my earlier link? Because it makes it pretty clear that getting shot at work by a co-worker isn't anything anyone should ever worry about. Unless they're extremely paranoid, of course, which I guess pretty much covers all of you.

*Well, maybe. Who knows? Why ask such irrelevant, stupid, and ultimately unanswerable questions in the first place, Mr. "think rather than emote"?

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:10 pm

lukpac wrote:
David Blaska wrote:Actually, Lukpac, the purpose of a gun is to put food on the table, to defend against attack, for target shooting and marksmanship competition.


Exactly what I said: hurt/damage people/things.

Besides, handguns are generally not used for hunting.


Wow, take a break for few days and I find this amusing thread. Well, let's start wading through this starting about here---

There are plenty of handguns used for hunting. Generally they aren't the same guns as used for self-defense however. A notable exception would be Ted Nugent's favorite: The Glock 20, a 10mm that is exceptionally effective for both hunting and defense, in capable hands. Guns are designed for specific types of uses. Some are designed for defense, some for hunting, some are designed solely for the purpose of punching holes in paper targets in competition.

I hear the "guns only have one purpose -- killing" refrain all the time. That statement is clearly false however. The truth is that guns are used for many purposes. Logically, if the statement "guns have one purpose, killing" was literally true, then the statement by a woman "I carry a gun to prevent rape" would necessarily be false. I don't think that is a false statement however. It is also true that more often than not, guns prevent bad things from happening without anyone being killed or without a shot being fired. I highly doubt that a majority of cops who have ever drawn their guns on a suspect have actually had to shoot at the suspect, let alone kill them. Most of the time a threat of a gun is enough to stop a person without a shot being fired.* Based on that fact one can easily claim that the purpose of a gun is "not to kill someone, but to change their mind about doing something bad." Even in the hands of a criminal, most of the time a gun is used to change someone's mind about something, not to kill. Look at the local robberies that have occurred: few ever involve a shot being fired. But I'm sure the gun served its "purpose." The gun by itself, strictly speaking, has no purpose. The purpose lies entirely with the user's intention, and that purpose can be for good or for bad. There is no "single purpose" for any type of gun, and anyone who makes that assertion is demonstrably wrong.

* The same is true for non-law enforcement uses of guns.
Last edited by Dangerousman on Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:17 pm

lukpac wrote:As for guns, a sign won't physically prevent somebody from carrying (or using) a gun, but it will make doing so a crime.


Okay, then there's this. Let's set the all-too-often ignored facts straight.

It doesn't make it a crime. It's a non-criminal offense subject to a forfeiture. I suggest reading and understanding what the law actually says, and is, before asserting something about it.

In this case, read Chapter 943.13 of the statutes.

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:25 pm

snoqueen wrote: And it's a shame on the Walker administration that workplaces have to be sticking "no guns" signs on the door instead of "help wanted."


Snowy, there's nothing that says workplaces "have to be sticking" signs up about guns. If there's a shame in any of this, it's that some workplaces have elected to do so, thereby reducing individuals' abilities to protect themselves against real dangers.

I've said it before but I'll repeat it here: having a job is an important thing for most people, but in the grand scheme of things it's secondary to remaining alive and healthy. A great job, or even a mediocre one, isn't of much value if one has been killed or disabled and unable to work. Is it?

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:41 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Law-abiding people will NOT disobey the law.


Well that goes without saying. What about the people who have waited for years that WILL break the law or do they not exist?


Well let's put it this way. Take the set of people who have passed the criminal background check to buy a gun, or to get a CCW license, and then compare it to the set of people who currently inhabit the state prisons, none of whom will pass a background check to buy a gun or get a CCW license. In your mind, which group of people is more likely to disobey the law in the future?

Then compare the first set of people to the entire set of the population of this state, and ask yourself the same question.

You can write your response here if you wish, but when studies have been conducted the data clearly shows that people who hold concealed carry licenses are among the least likely to commit a violent crime. Are you going to find that surprising?

WAVE and the Brady Campaign like to make a great noise about it whenever a person with a CCW permit commits a crime. As if an exception here or there is an indictment against the entire group of people. If that's a fair conclusion, then I suppose we ought to conclude that all cops are bad because the one's who beat Rodney King were bad. In truth, even with the rare exceptions, whenever the set of CCW permit holders is compared to the general population, the permit holders are strikingly less likely to commit a crime.

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby wack wack » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:46 pm

Dangerousman wrote:There are plenty of handguns used for hunting. Generally they aren't the same guns as used for self-defense however. A notable exception would be Ted Nugent's favorite: The Glock 20, a 10mm that is exceptionally effective for both hunting and defense, in capable hands. Guns are designed for specific types of uses. Some are designed for defense, some for hunting, some are designed solely for the purpose of punching holes in paper targets in competition.


How many handguns vs. long guns are used to hunt every year?

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:52 pm

Dangerousman wrote: In truth, even with the rare exceptions, whenever the set of CCW permit holders is compared to the general population, the permit holders are strikingly less likely to commit a crime.


Which lead me to my next point. Speaking of putting up "no guns allowed" signs, isn't it curious that this is clearly designed to thwart the law-abiding citizens only? I've yet to see anyone argue that the signs will effectively stop criminals from entering these businesses with guns. Clearly signs didn't stop the shooter from killing two innocent people and seriously wounding a third inside the city-county building--- even with the Madison police and Sheriff's department a few doors down the hall. What did stop that person eventually? Yup, someone else with a gun.

Boys and girls, what lessons would intelligent people learn from this example?

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby David Blaska » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:53 pm

wack wack wrote:How many handguns vs. long guns are used to hunt every year?


Irrelevant.

Dangerousman, you have earned your name. Your command of fact and logic is very dangerous on a Forum like this. Take care!

Why concealed carry?
A man walking in the 6200 block of Raymond Road Tuesday afternoon was punched and his cell phone stolen by a gang of 5 to 8 teens. In the afternoon! (Here is the report.)

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby jman111 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:55 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Boys and girls, what lessons would intelligent people learn from this example?

That even well-intentioned advocates can come across as condescending pricks?

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Re: "No Guns" signs, not "Help Wanted" signs

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:05 pm

wack wack wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:There are plenty of handguns used for hunting. Generally they aren't the same guns as used for self-defense however. A notable exception would be Ted Nugent's favorite: The Glock 20, a 10mm that is exceptionally effective for both hunting and defense, in capable hands. Guns are designed for specific types of uses. Some are designed for defense, some for hunting, some are designed solely for the purpose of punching holes in paper targets in competition.


How many handguns vs. long guns are used to hunt every year?


I don't think anyone knows, since a hunting license doesn't require one to identify the type of firearm used. Of course there are times when only a certain type of firearm can be used, for example one cannot hunt water foul with anything other than a shotgun, far as I know. Generally handgun hunters want to make it more challenging, so all things considered, probably fewer handguns are used than long guns. Plus I don't think minors are allowed to hunt with handguns, so they're taken out of the equation, too. I stopped hunting years ago, so I haven't made it a great point to keep up with any changes in hunting regulations.

On the whole handguns are undoubtedly used less than long guns, but still they're used frequently at the very least. Does it really matter what the percentage is? If it was an insignificant number of hunters who used handguns, then I doubt you'd find the extensive number of handgun models designed for hunting on the market. Like any business, gun manufacturers aren't going invest much in something that has minimal demand. Pick up a general gun catalog and page through it. If you know a little bit about guns you'll be able to identify those designed for hunting, or competitive shooting, and those for personal defense. Or, in a few cases, for investment as collectors items.


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