It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

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Henry Vilas
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:05 am

Even Catholic moral philosophy can get a little fuzzy as to when the soul appears. Some said at quickening. Others thought the sperm contained the full human being, but in miniature form (the homunculus). Nowadays they espouse the unique DNA angle. Since about a third of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, does that mean that God is an abortionist? I thought he was all good, but he does work in mysterious ways. So when those undifferentiated cell masses miscarry, where do their souls go? Catholics used to say to Limbo, but that is now out of favor.

Can you now see why civil law should not be based on sectarian religious tenets?

snoqueen
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby snoqueen » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:07 am

What about people who have an organ transplant, or even a blood transfusion. Do they become two people, or more than two?

Maybe they should get to vote twice, if DNA is what makes you a legal person.

The DNA thing is also nonsensical on the basis the church didn't even KNOW about DNA when they wrote up their conception policy. Nobody knew about DNA until Crick and Watson in the 1950s. You can't base religious belief (let alone law) on something that hasn't been discovered yet.

From what I understand, we don't base religious absolutism on something as flaky as science, right? I mean, some flavors of Christianity think geology is a trick of the devil to mislead believers. So how do we go about picking and choosing which religion gets to rule?

And while we're at it, what's a soul? It seems plain enough that something leaves/ends/dissipates at death, but does that mean it arrives/begins/coalesces at conception or birth? Maybe it's not that linear. If we can't even agree on a definition, soul is hardly a good basis for legislation.

Me, I feel sorry for the tiny courageous spermies bravely swimming upstream to search for the elusive Egg. Why don't those little guys count, if a zygote does? The doggone zygote just sits there.

wack wack
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby wack wack » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:11 am

snoqueen wrote:Maybe they should get to vote twice, if DNA is what makes you a legal person.


Only if they're Republicans! Otherwise they go to jail for trying to claim two people in one body. That's VOTER FRAUD!

Ned Flanders
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:31 am

bdog wrote:We don't need any more life on this planet. What we need is a good old-fashioned plague.

ding ding ding

rabble
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby rabble » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:44 am

snoqueen wrote:What about people who have an organ transplant, or even a blood transfusion. Do they become two people, or more than two?

Now we're getting into Shamanism territory, Native American and to a certain extent, ancient Hebrew, where everything has a soul; rocks, trees, plants, and every part of the body, for those with two legs and four.

This makes it possible for an injury to be on a spiritual level as well as physical; one person took a bad hit playing a game during a picnic and dislocated his shoulder. When it just wouldn't heal up, he and his friends did a soul retrieval for his shoulder joint, and he started to get better right away.

This proves that his spiritual beliefs are more better than Blaska's and SerenaK608's, and should be the law of the land.

DCB
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby DCB » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:49 am

Lets go the full Mississippi and ban all contraception:
http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2 ... ote-looms/
If this initiative passes, and fertilized eggs on their own have full legal rights, anything that could potentially block that implantation—something a woman’s body does naturally all the time—could be considered murder.

David Blaska
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:29 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Can you now see why civil law should not be based on sectarian religious tenets?


Justice Harry Blackmun, Roe v Wade wrote:You will observe that I have concluded that the end of the first trimester is critical. This is arbitrary, but perhaps any other selected point ... is equally arbitrary." -- in private correspondence now at the Library of Congress.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Zoti Bemba » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:54 am

snoqueen wrote:What about people who have an organ transplant, or even a blood transfusion. Do they become two people, or more than two?

Maybe they should get to vote twice, if DNA is what makes you a legal person.


Alternately, are identical twins committing voter fraud when they each cast a ballot?

And then there's criminal law: If you kill only one twin is it murder? What if one twin kills the other -- was any crime committed? Do you have to lock up both twins if one commits a crime? Would you have to execute both for a death sentence to be legally complete?

I don't think that the anti-abortion forces are doing their cause much of a favor by reducing personhood to a set of DNA, but then it's not like a fetus has much in the way of life experience or social connections or economic circumstances -- you know, all that stuff that "pro-lifers" happily dismiss or ignore when it comes to real actual living breathing people doing all kinds of morally questionable things instead of just floating around in an idealized state of innocence. If only all that unique DNA would just stay in the womb where it belongs! It would make religion so much simpler...

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby rrnate » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:54 am

David Blaska wrote:
My Catholic upbringing teaches at conception, Stu. You?



MY Catholic upbringing wises me to how full of shit you are.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby WestSideYuppie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:06 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Even Catholic moral philosophy can get a little fuzzy as to when the soul appears. Some said at quickening. Others thought the sperm contained the full human being, but in miniature form (the homunculus). Nowadays they espouse the unique DNA angle. Since about a third of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, does that mean that God is an abortionist?


The existence of sperm wasn't even known into the 17th century, and reproduction was held to be a supernatural process. There is no evidence that the church fathers regarded the mother as anything but a physical carrier of something created spontaneously by god. A female part of something sinless and potentially rational would go against the principle of misogyny.

And there's no reason to suppose that the church fathers were thinking of associating the joining of the body and soul with any specific physical event. It's equally consistent with the history of church dogma, that the soul is carried by the sperm, by the semen, or by an angel.

Sure, it can be associated with conception today, but by the same people who still don't think that reproduction can be described in wholly naturalistic terms.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby WestSideYuppie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:09 am

David Blaska wrote:
Stu Levitan wrote:Dave, when do you believe life begins? When does the soul enter the body?

Serious questions, I expect an honest response.


My Catholic upbringing teaches at conception, Stu. You?


It seems ironic that you won't take ownership of this opinion. "My Catholic upbringing teaches" sounds like a pretty evasive way of expressing an opinion. You could have said:

"I believe..."
"The Church teaches..."
"The truth is...."
"The evidence suggests that..."

kurt_w
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby kurt_w » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:27 am

Ned Flanders wrote:
bdog wrote:We don't need any more life on this planet. What we need is a good old-fashioned plague.

ding ding ding


Aha, another of those exceedingly rare occasions where Flanders is actually willing to disagree with one of his fellow Republicans. Although that "disagreement" seems to be limited to, er, pretending to be a doorbell, or something.

Detritus
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Detritus » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:33 am

David Blaska wrote:
Justice Harry Blackmun, Roe v Wade wrote:You will observe that I have concluded that the end of the first trimester is critical. This is arbitrary, but perhaps any other selected point ... is equally arbitrary." -- in private correspondence now at the Library of Congress.

And what did you remove from the quote, replacing will a malformed ellipsis? And how does that removal change the import of the quote?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby kurt_w » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:42 am

OK, Mr Blaska. Two questions:

(1) Do you think abortion is murder? (I'm assuming that your answer is "Yes", since earlier in this thread you directly analogized abortion to the Nazi death camps. But it would be helpful if you would just give a direct answer).

(2) What do you think is an appropriate punishment for mothers who hire someone to murder their children?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:01 pm

And answer the "identical twin" question, David:

When the zygote splits and twins are born, do they each get half a soul? Do they share the same soul?

I would really like an answer. Because I don't think you have one.


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