It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

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jman111
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby jman111 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:00 pm

lukpac wrote:
David Blaska wrote:Do you dispute that "It" ... is
a) innocent (as opposed to a convicted murderer, for instance)
b) human (as opposed to opossum)
c) life (at least, until it is aborted -- aka killed.)


Are you describing a tumor?

I'll handle this one, B:
That question is "off-topic". And he, uhhh, "unsubscribed" due to favorable weather. And, um, you guys are uncivilized. And... look over there!!

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby kurt_w » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:12 pm

David Blaska wrote:
kurt_w wrote:OK, Mr Blaska. Two questions:

(1) Do you think abortion is murder? (I'm assuming that your answer is "Yes", since earlier in this thread you directly analogized abortion to the Nazi death camps. But it would be helpful if you would just give a direct answer).

(2) What do you think is an appropriate punishment for mothers who hire someone to murder their children?


Straight answers, without [childish insult deleted]:

1) Abortion does take a human life; the life (admittedly at an early stage) is human, not vegetable or animal. Murder is a particular term in criminal law. And we do have penalties for those who kill a fetus. Statute 940.195 also penalizes battery to an unborn child.


That's not a "straight answer".

If we consider a hypothetical case where Peter Psycho walks into a hospital room and kills a 1-month-old baby, we can all agree that it's murder. Same thing if the victim is 95 years old, 18 years old, whatever. (Ignoring, for the sake of argument, various exceptions involving self-defense, warfare, etc.) The age of the victim doesn't matter.

Now, a straight answer to my question would be something like "Yes" (meaning Mr Blaska puts aborting a minus-eight-month old fetus in the same category as killing a one-month old, 18-year-old, or 95-year-old) or "No" (meaning that Mr Blaska does not put abortion in the same category as killing a one-month old, 18-year-old, or 95-year-old).

2) I don't know; perhaps only moral dissuasion. A statute need not provide a penalty. (Incidentally, most Americans are now pro-life.) Kurt, interesting that you use the term "mothers."


I used the term "mothers" because I want to know what punishment you would consider appropriate for a mother of an actual, non-fetal child who hires a hit-man to murder her offspring.

Many anti-abortion people like to employ the claim that "Abortion is murder!" Yet virtually all people reject the proposal of treating women who obtain abortions in exactly the same way as we would treat a woman who murdered her child, or who paid someone else to murder her child.

18 U.S.C. 1958 states that "murder for hire" is subject to the death penalty. Roughly 30% of American women will have an abortion by age 45 (source).

To be honest, I don't think that most people who claim "abortion is murder!" really want to imprison or execute 30% of the women in the United States. In other words, they don't genuinely believe that "abortion is murder". They just want to get the rhetorical advantage of claiming that their opponents support murder.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:18 pm

jman111 wrote:
lukpac wrote:
David Blaska wrote:Do you dispute that "It" ... is
a) innocent (as opposed to a convicted murderer, for instance)
b) human (as opposed to opossum)
c) life (at least, until it is aborted -- aka killed.)


Are you describing a tumor?

I'll handle this one, B:
That question is "off-topic". And he, uhhh, "unsubscribed" due to favorable weather. And, um, you guys are uncivilized. And... look over there!!

Said the Jeremy who never takes a position on anything.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Huckleby » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:41 pm

this is the first time I've ever unsubscribed to a thread.

I want to read arguments about abortion about as much as I want to argue the merits of prayer in school or flouride in the water supply.

goodbye, cruel thread

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:49 pm

kurt_w wrote:OK, Mr Blaska. Two questions:

(1) Do you think abortion is murder?

(2) What do you think is an appropriate punishment for mothers who hire someone to murder their children?


David Blaska wrote:Straight answers:

1) Abortion does take a human life; the life (admittedly at an early stage) is human, not vegetable or animal. Murder is a particular term in criminal law. And we do have penalties for those who kill a fetus..


kurt_w wrote:That's not a "straight answer".

Many anti-abortion people like to employ the claim that "Abortion is murder!" Yet virtually all people reject the proposal of treating women who obtain abortions in exactly the same way as we would treat a woman who murdered her child, or who paid someone else to murder her child.


Kurt, you don't have to like my answer. That's quite permissible.
Probably more than a few pro-life advocates won't like my answer, either. But it is my answer and it is a straight answer.

There are many degrees of homicide (1st degree intentional homicide to 2nd degree reckless homicide, etc.) Clearly, Wisconsin law regards the unborn child as a person.

WI Stat 940.01(b) wrote:Except as provided in sub. (2), whoever causes the death of an unborn child with intent to kill that unborn child, kill the woman who is pregnant with that unborn child or kill another is guilty of a Class A felony....


So yes, state law treats the murder (the word is 1st degree intentional homicide) of an unborn child as a felony. The question YOU asked, Kurt, is would I apply such a law to a woman who aborts her child. I indicated that I would not. I am not keen, Kurt, on filling the jails with misled women who are already traumatized by the abortion.

There is a statute on the books on abortion.

WI Stat 940.04 wrote:
(1) Any person, other than the mother, who intentionally destroys the life of an unborn child is guilty of a Class H felony. ...
(3) Any pregnant woman who intentionally destroys the life of her unborn child or who consents to such destruction by another may be fined not more than $200 or imprisoned not more than 6 months or both.
.

U.S. Supreme Court decisions rendered that statute unenforceable.

And no, Kurt, I will not respect a Foron like uRRinate who chooses to spew the F word rather than debate issues.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:52 pm

And now, if Huckleby can unsubscribe, so can I. And Jeremy, before you criticize others for doing so, how about you take a stand -- just for once?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:54 pm

So Mr. B, based on your vague response to my post, does it mean that you would outlaw abortion in cases of rape and incest? A simple yes or no will do.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:03 pm

A simple yes or no will do.


I'm expecting something more along the lines of a blog post titled "Madison Liberals propose forced murder of infants".

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby kurt_w » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:10 pm

David Blaska wrote:Kurt, you don't have to like my answer. That's quite permissible.
Probably more than a few pro-life advocates won't like my answer, either. But it is my answer and it is a straight answer.

There are many degrees of homicide (1st degree intentional homicide to 2nd degree reckless homicide, etc.) Clearly, Wisconsin law regards the unborn child as a person. [... excerpt from Wisconsin Statutes deleted ...]

So yes, state law treats the murder (the word is 1st degree intentional homicide) of an unborn child as a felony. The question YOU asked, Kurt, is would I apply such a law to a woman who aborts her child. I indicated that I would not. I am not keen, Kurt, on filling the jails with misled women who are already traumatized by the abortion.

There is a statute on the books on abortion. [... excerpt from Wisconsin Statutes deleted ...]

U.S. Supreme Court decisions rendered that statute unenforceable.




That's a lot of words to run through, merely to avoid giving a simple answer to a simple question. All I want to know is whether David Blaska thinks abortion is murder.

I'm not asking whether Wisconsin Statutes thinks abortion is murder. I just want your opinion.

You've already suggested that your moral beliefs are informed by Catholic teachings, and I was under the impression that one of the commandments refers to murder, despite the fact that the Old Testament predates Wisconsin Statutes.

I'm not sure why you have so much difficulty answering a simple question ("Is abortion murder?") with a simple answer like "Yes" or "No" or "I haven't made up my mind about that."

It's nice to know that you don't think 30% of American women should be prosecuted and imprisoned (or executed) for their abortions. That's, at least, a start. Now the only question is whether Mr Blaska believes

(A) Abortion is not murder, or

(B) Abortion is murder, but the tens of millions of murderers walking free on America's streets should be excused from the normal punishment for murder, because abortion is a "different" kind of murder.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby ilikebeans » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:20 pm

David Blaska wrote:Clearly, Wisconsin law regards the unborn child as a person.
...
So yes, state law treats the murder (the word is 1st degree intentional homicide) of an unborn child as a felony.
[statues omitted]

Yep, this is exactly the pro-life tactic since the 70's-- chip away at abortion rights little by little, passing slippery-slope laws that don't specifically abolish the practice, but lay the groundwork.

And now, of course, you and your right-wing brethren point at the statues: "SEE! SEE! Fetuses are PEOPLE! It's right here in the law!" soon to be followed by, "Well, why should the mother be different from some third party that wants to kill her unborn child?"

Predictable and wholly disgusting back then, and remains that way today.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby rabble » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:08 pm

I guess Walker DOES have to accept that raise with no givebacks allowed.

Either that, or there's no moral ambiguity attached to cutting wages for others and increasing them for yourself.

That goes to show me. I thought the answer would be more complicated.

Well okay. What other immoralities do we need to get legislated away? Strip joints, maybe? Is gambling moral?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby rrnate » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:09 pm

David Blaska wrote:And no, Kurt, I will not respect a Foron like uRRinate who chooses to spew the F word rather than debate issues.


Fuck you buddy! In all seriousness, unlike some of these other guys on here, I have absolutely no interest in whatever your view is on abortion; I just assume it's the same kind of worthless opinion you have on all sorts of issues, from baggy pants to how a government should work. I just like pointing out how fucking ridiculous you are and take a little satisfaction in knowing that you probably really think of yourself the same way.

Have a great weekend Dave!

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby snoqueen » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:50 pm

All I want to know is whether David Blaska thinks abortion is murder.


You won't find out. Blaska never gives straight answers to anything. He'll always cut corners and preserve deniability, so he can weasel out of it if someone comes up with a more powerful counter- argument.


More importantly: For some reason, neither side of our great national divide can answer the questions posed by the other -- and it's not just about abortion. We are asking totally different questions proceeding from totally different views of reality.

Look, I can't possibly answer questions like "do you believe in the trinity?" or the divinity of this or that. I simply have no grounds on which to even imagine a reality where that's a meaningful question. I don't know what's so hard about the murder question for Blaska (or his comrades), but I'll give him some space to say (if he wants to) the whole question doesn't compute for him.

Can we even get to agreement on that much?

Probably not. He said he unsubscribed again, right?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby kurt_w » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:43 pm

Snoqueen, in my last reply I did actually give Blaska the third option of "I haven't made up my mind about that."

I have no problem with people for whom abortion is a gray area, with lots of uncertainty and nuance. If that were Blaska's position, if that were the reason why he balks at giving an answer, I'd respect that.

But my guess is that -- like many anti-abortion folks -- he can't bring himself to admit that it is a gray area. There's too much advantage in holding the moral high ground of arguing against "murder". He's not irredeemably crazy, so he doesn't really think abortion should be treated like actual murder cases. But he also can't bring himself to just say flat out "No, abortion is not murder." It ought to be an easy thing to say, but so far he's having a great deal of difficulty bringing himself to say it.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby pjbogart » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:02 pm

Here's my position on abortion, and I think it's probably a far more popular one than most people suspect:

A fetus is a human being. Killing a fetus is morally wrong. It is not my right nor my responsibility to make moral decisions for you, especially when that moral decision involves something entirely within your own body. If you opt for an abortion you may find that you need to make peace with yourself, but you shouldn't feel any need to make peace with me.


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