It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

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David Blaska
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:13 pm

kurt_w wrote:OK, Mr Blaska. Two questions:

(1) Do you think abortion is murder? (I'm assuming that your answer is "Yes", since earlier in this thread you directly analogized abortion to the Nazi death camps. But it would be helpful if you would just give a direct answer).

(2) What do you think is an appropriate punishment for mothers who hire someone to murder their children?


Straight answers, without Mr. uRRinate's sputtering profanities:

1) Abortion does take a human life; the life (admittedly at an early stage) is human, not vegetable or animal. Murder is a particular term in criminal law. And we do have penalties for those who kill a fetus. Statute 940.195 also penalizes battery to an unborn child.

2) I don't know; perhaps only moral dissuasion. A statute need not provide a penalty. (Incidentally, most Americans are now pro-life.) Kurt, interesting that you use the term "mothers."

Stu Levitan: I'm not going to answer your "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" question. In any event, your question is off-topic. The topic is human life and abortion, not the after-life.

fisticuffs
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:17 pm

(Incidentally, most Americans are now pro-life.)


False.

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

WestSideYuppie
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby WestSideYuppie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:21 pm

David Blaska wrote:Stu Levitan: I'm not going to answer your "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" question. In any event, your question is off-topic. The topic is human life and abortion, not the after-life.

The relationship between physical and spiritual conception is exactly the matter of the OP.

David Blaska
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:49 pm

I concede Fisti's point on pro-life; I was looking at a 2009 poll; the 2011 update swings back to a small lead for pro-life.
However, Gallup's 2011 Values and Beliefs survey, conducted May 5-8, finds a bit more public agreement about the morality of abortion. Just over half of Americans, 51%, believe abortion is "morally wrong," while 39% say it is "morally acceptable." Americans' views on this have been fairly steady since 2002, except for 2006, when they were evenly divided.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:51 pm

I concede Fisti's point on pro-life; I was looking at a 2009 poll; the 2011 update swings back to a small lead for pro-life.
3

There's more to the questions than pro-life/pro-choice. A small sliver of Americans believe abortion should be illegal in all cases.
You can oppose something morally without feeling the need to inflict that moral upon everyone else. Well, you can't David, but reasonable honest people can.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby jman111 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:53 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
(Incidentally, most Americans are now pro-life.)


False.

"False", he said, betraying his belief in objective truth with /gasp!/ evidence to support his statement. These types of arguments can't compete in the delusional world of subjective truth, where "facts" are merely stated opinions and "truths" determined by consensus.

rabble
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby rabble » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:55 pm

David Blaska wrote:I concede Fisti's point on pro-life; I was looking at a 2009 poll; the 2011 update swings back to a small lead for pro-life.
However, Gallup's 2011 Values and Beliefs survey, conducted May 5-8, finds a bit more public agreement about the morality of abortion. Just over half of Americans, 51%, believe abortion is "morally wrong," while 39% say it is "morally acceptable." Americans' views on this have been fairly steady since 2002, except for 2006, when they were evenly divided.

Well then that makes it clear. We should be basing our legal system on what's morally right.

That means we have a LOT of work to do. Is it morally right to fire someone because they smoke, have a baby, are getting too old, et cetera and more cetera? How about a governor who runs on a "we're bankrupt" ticket, busts some unions, and then gives himself a raise?

And when you've answered those I've a whole lot more morality-based word problems for ya.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:01 pm

If abortion is wrong because the unborn blastocyst, zygote, fetus, etc. is an innocent human life, then why an exception for pregnancies that result from incest or rape? And if those exceptions are allowed, then why only for them?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:02 pm

rabble wrote:Well then that makes it clear. We should be basing our legal system on what's morally right. That means we have a LOT of work to do. Is it morally right to fire someone because they smoke,


A. Prohibited by state statute

rabble wrote:have a baby,


A. Prohibited by statute

rabble wrote:are getting too old,


A. Prohibited by statute

rabble wrote:How about a governor who runs on a "we're bankrupt" ticket, busts some unions, and then gives himself a raise?


A. False.

rabble wrote:And when you've answered those I've a whole lot more morality-based word problems for ya.


A. I'm sure you do, Rabble. But if they're no better than these then I'll take a pass.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby lukpac » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:07 pm

fisticuffs wrote:You can oppose something morally without feeling the need to inflict that moral upon everyone else. Well, you can't David, but reasonable honest people can.


Bingo.

David Blaska
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:14 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:If abortion is wrong because the unborn blastocyst, zygote, fetus, etc. is an innocent human life, then why an exception for pregnancies that result from incest or rape? And if those exceptions are allowed, then why only for them?


Finally, a good question! Now you understand the difference between Wisconsin Right to Life and Pro-Life Wisconsin.

Henry Vilas wrote:an innocent human life ...


Do you dispute that "It" ... is
a) innocent (as opposed to a convicted murderer, for instance)
b) human (as opposed to opossum)
c) life (at least, until it is aborted -- aka killed.)

Now, if you'll excuse me, the day is nice, I have other things to do. You can listen to uRRinate's cursing while I'm gone or Stu's inquisition into the nature of divine grace.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby wack wack » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:18 pm

David Blaska wrote:Now, if you'll excuse me, the day is nice, I have other things to do.


More lies to tell, more hate to spread.

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby rabble » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:35 pm

David Blaska wrote:A. False.

I don't have time to go into the many ways it's possible to get around those statutes, but let's just focus on that one.

So, you're telling us that Walker and his crew MUST accept those raises, huh?

And it's quite moral of them to do so?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby lukpac » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:41 pm

David Blaska wrote:Do you dispute that "It" ... is
a) innocent (as opposed to a convicted murderer, for instance)
b) human (as opposed to opossum)
c) life (at least, until it is aborted -- aka killed.)


Are you describing a tumor?

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby wack wack » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:55 pm

Has anybody else seen this ad from Mississippi, ostensibly in support of this Amendment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTKF3m8rfhY

After seeing the ad, I decided that to be a person, you have to be able to say, "I am a person." Which fits well with my personal opinion that even born children don't become real persons until age 5 or so.


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