Isthmus on Edgewater

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Huckleby
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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:24 am

other i wrote:If we wanted the ultimate democratic test of this issue, and put it to a referendum, I think the results would be rather interesting. I don't advocate that we do that. But the back-and-forth on which body is more democratic certainly needs to be grounded in the reality that a referendum for ANY TIF funding of the Edgewater project would probably fail.

I would be OK with a referendum, in fact given the bitterness that has developed, maybe it is a good idea at this point.

But you don't have to go to the "ultimate democratic test", a reasonable compromise is to look at the consensus of direct representatives. That balances democracy with the need to study the issue.

I'm curious why you think any TIF funding would fail. A supermajority of the council voted for the project, this is a powerful statement of public opinion. Although not specifically a TIF vote, I doubt that this threshold could have been reached if the constituents of our representatives were against TIF.

Which brings me back to my main rant: the opponets of this project don't give a flying damn about democracy. They view their position as having moral authority, it is the Correct way, justifying any mechanism necessary to see it through. There is certainly a bucketful of that sentiment on the advocacy side as well, but the proponents don't seem to have the same glowing eyes.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:30 am

Huckleby wrote:
other i wrote:Which brings me back to my main rant: the opponets of this project don't give a flying damn about democracy. They view their position as having moral authority, it is the Correct way, justifying any mechanism necessary to see it through.

That's the same rant used by the Wisconsin GOP in regards to the Capitol protests, (including the 14 Democratic state senators who prevented the Senate from voting on the budget bill).

Huckleby
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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:33 am

Huckleby wrote: the opponets of this project don't give a flying damn about democracy .

It occurs to me that Huckleby is a bit out of line here. It probably isn't a case of not caring about democracy in many cases, its just the assumption that most people think like themselves. It's human nature to think that the People are with you.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:36 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
Huckleby wrote:
other i wrote:Which brings me back to my main rant: the opponets of this project don't give a flying damn about democracy. They view their position as having moral authority, it is the Correct way, justifying any mechanism necessary to see it through.

That's the same rant used by the Wisconsin GOP in regards to the Capitol protests, (including the 14 Democratic state senators who prevented the Senate from voting on the budget bill).


well, yes, I suppose it is. And the Republicans had a point. But in that case, there were extreme undemocratic machinations going on with Team Walker.

I agreed with the Dems tit-for-tat procedural move. But it certainly gave me pause, its a nasty trick. Extraordinary circumstances may require extraordinary measures. Nothing extraordinary about a damn hotel refurbish.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:06 am

Huckleby wrote:Nothing extraordinary about a damn hotel refurbish.

Nothing extraordinary about using democratically instituted procedures to reduce the TIF grant either.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:45 am

who should have the final say?

I think the will of the people should be weighted heavily on this one, the well-informed council should be the deciders, as GW would say.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby gargantua » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:07 am

Ducatista wrote:
gargantua wrote:Since I didn't see a yes or no, looks like your question was deflected.

That's lame. So was the question, sorry Bwis.

I'm as disgusted as Huckleby by Mohs and the vocal cadre of height averse (love that my personal proportions would make their blood run cold). Maybe more so, since this is my neighborhood people are tut-tutting about. And I've gotten just as wrapped up as Huckleby in forum discussions that frustrate me, though I don't have the time or appetite to duke it out on this one.

So to me, the "you must be an insider" line reads like crappy playground etiquette.


Have to disagree with you there. I didn't say Huckleby was an insider, I noted that Huckleby did not answer the question. The question is reasonable. If someone takes a position on an issue, their connection, or possible financial interest in the outcome, affects their credibility. I view the words of someone who has an obvious conflict of interest differently than someone who doesn't. That goes equally for Mohs and anyone in his employ. That's not lame, that's common sense.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Ducatista » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:33 am

gargantua wrote:Have to disagree with you there.

Yeah, I didn't think you'd find your own post lame.

I haven't (and wouldn't) suggest the frequent posters opposing the project are invested or associated with Mohs, or other hotels, or any other economic interest, because I understand they may be impassioned for reasons that are completely above board (however misguided I think they may be), and because that approach smells a wee bit sour to me.

And even if Huckleby turns out to be Hammes, I'll stand by my wrinkled nose.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:38 pm

I have only the slightest connection with the Edgewater. A friend of mine, Captain Baker, does some sailing business off their peer, has spoken at various public hearings on the topic, and has passed some second and third hand chatter on to me.

I think it is likely that the Council will go along with a reduced TIF, which I will easily accept.

I have a bee in my bonnett over the excessive power of the Landmarks Commission, will be mad again if a veto decides the matter, as Stu Levitan gleefully (my interpretation :lol: ) anticipates.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby green union terrace chair » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:34 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Huckleby wrote: the opponets of this project don't give a flying damn about democracy .

It occurs to me that Huckleby is a bit out of line here. It probably isn't a case of not caring about democracy in many cases, its just the assumption that most people think like themselves. It's human nature to think that the People are with you.

Are you intentionally quoting yourself here in the third person in order to moderate the tone of your previous post, or did you forget to login to your other account?

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:53 pm

busted. my alter ego is Henry Vilas. That would be my dark side.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby gargantua » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:44 am

Ducatista wrote:
gargantua wrote:Have to disagree with you there.

Yeah, I didn't think you'd find your own post lame.

I haven't (and wouldn't) suggest the frequent posters opposing the project are invested or associated with Mohs, or other hotels, or any other economic interest, because I understand they may be impassioned for reasons that are completely above board (however misguided I think they may be), and because that approach smells a wee bit sour to me.

And even if Huckleby turns out to be Hammes, I'll stand by my wrinkled nose.


OK. You seem to be equating asking about a connection with suggesting a connection. Not an unreasonable inference. Can't speak for Bwis, but that was not my intent. Huckleby's initial response to Bwis looked a little like evasion to me, which I pointed out and is now clarified. I think that I have gotten so used to dodging by the likes of Flanders and Blaska that I sort of have a knee-jerk reaction when I think I see someone doing it. I will hang on to my knee next time.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Bwis53 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:12 am

Yes, I did wonder about a Huck connection because of the frequency and tenacity of his arguments. Not everyone had the same perception of Soglin as he. Something smelled to me. It might have made for an even more interesting discussion if there was a connection. My feeling about Huck's comment about how beautiful the lake was from the bar seemed obtuse. But I'm not a great arguer, I think I ask good questions now and then.

I hope Henry was joking.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Ducatista » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:11 pm

Bwis53 wrote:Yes, I did wonder about a Huck connection because of the frequency and tenacity of his arguments.

And maybe because he sounds like a richie? sno's multi-thread word count on the opposing side makes Huck look like a piker, and you haven't questioned her motives.

Gargantua, I got ya.

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Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:29 pm

Soglin on TIFs.

...Soglin warned that Madison can't throw money at developers via the tax increment financing (TIF) process, the best tool available for municipalities to spur private sector real estate projects.

"The vast majority of TIF districts right now are underwater," he said.

That means the development has failed to generate the projected tax revenues. Some notable TIF non-performers include Monroe Commons and the Monona Terrace Hilton hotel.

Soglin also noted that with property values still falling, it may take longer for TIF-backed projects to generate projected tax dollars.

"There are some real risks if property values continue to decline," he said.


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