Why I support tribe's plan, and not a reactionary casino ban

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

What alternative proposals for income have you offered for the tribe?

Poll ended at Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:02 pm

I'll think of something later
3
21%
I don't care about their needs
4
29%
I've proposed a $10 billion reparations subsidy that the county is about to vote on
3
21%
This isn't about them, this is about me
4
29%
 
Total votes: 14

Harbinger
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Why I support tribe's plan, and not a reactionary casino ban

Postby Harbinger » Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:02 pm



wee beastie wrote:

It can reduced to a pretty simple equation:

White invaders steal Indian land
White invaders herd Indians onto small worthless parcels of agriculturally poor, mineral poor land far from white invader economic/job centers, leaving the Indians with no real source of white-approved economic betterment.
White invaders in the Bureau of Indian Affairs screw Indians, nationally, out of uncounted billions in assistance.
White invaders give Indians "national soveriegnty" -- but prevent them from excercising soveriegnty rights when it benefits them.
Indians fall into deep poverty. Their culture crumbles. Substance abuse and crime skyrocket. Indian lives are destroyed.
White invader federal government does little to help.
Indians find a business model (casinos) which allows them to make a lot of money rather quickly.
Indians use it.
Many tribes standards of living increase dramatically.
White invader progeny deny any responsibility for Indian problem.
White invader progeny try to stop tribes from engaging in the one business that has helped most in lifting them out of poverty.

Personally, I hope that the Indians are more than successful ...

...oh ,oh, and then you can complain about how unjust that was.
How wronged you were.


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Re: Why I support tribe's plan, and not a reactionary casino

Postby wee beastie » Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:37 pm

White invaders in the Bureau of Indian Affairs screw Indians, nationally, out of uncounted billions in assistance.


I would amend that to include the federal Bureau of Land Managment.

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Postby jjoyce » Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:46 pm

I guess I don't understand why voting against a Dane County casino is stopping the Ho-Chunk tribe from doing business when they're already very much in the business of gambling in the Wisconsin Dells and right here in Dane County.

Casinos don't make much sense to me (gambling detracts from society), but they make more sense in places like the Dells, Turtle Lake, Dubuque, etc. and I think the amount of revenue tribes will continue to see in those places is encouraging. Is it satisfactory payment for centuries of mistreatment? No. Will the establishment of slot machines at DeJope make it satisfactory? What do you think?

I have no answer for the "what have you done to make reparations to Native Americans today" question. But I know that I don't think anything good can come from building a casino in Madison. And I also see that the tribe doesn't seem to be doing much in the way of making the proposed agreement right with the city.

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Postby ShaneDog » Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:54 pm

They could open any number of highly profitable businesses by leveraging their capital produced by the other casino they own.

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Postby arielbria » Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:55 pm

I cannot wait for Tuesday to be over, although I am grateful to have had a chance to see the true colors of many Madisonians shining through. Iââ?¬â?¢m sure that many are genuine in their concern for what a deep, dark, irresistibly tempting casino would do to the morals of Madison. However, it seems to me that none of us have a leg to stand on when it comes to the morality argument. If the morals are what concerns us, why arenââ?¬â?¢t we fighting for Native Americans to be given an avenue to better themselves and maintain their culture that ISNââ?¬â?¢T something we find morally reprehensible. Better yet, why werenââ?¬â?¢t we fighting for that all alongââ?¬ÂŠwhy did it take a big, scary casino threatening our lovely, ââ?¬Å?liberalââ?¬? Madison existence to make any of us even give a second thought to the plight of American Indians?

Bottom line is money, and it seems to me that anyone who says it isn�t about the money, but about the morals, is really kidding themselves. Either way, whether money is our top priority or we�re pushing our hypocritical morals on everyone, let�s just start being honest with ourselves�because I don�t think either of those things is what most people would consider representative of Madison, but our actions are speaking much louder than our words.

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Postby ShaneDog » Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:59 pm

arielbria wrote:I�m sure that many are genuine in their concern for what a deep, dark, irresistibly tempting casino would do to the morals of Madison. However, it seems to me that none of us have a leg to stand on when it comes to the morality argument. If the morals are what concerns us, why aren�t we fighting for Native Americans to be given an avenue to better themselves and maintain their culture that ISN�T something we find morally reprehensible.


Who is making the morality argument? I haven't heard one person on the "no" side talking about gambling being immoral.

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Postby Chuck_Schick » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:02 pm

ShaneDog wrote:They could open any number of highly profitable businesses by leveraging their capital produced by the other casino they own.
No shit! I keep wondering why this isn't discussed more in-depth. I mean, in the past I've heard ridiculously large numbers touted as to how much money per member the tribe pulls down from gaming.

So, if Dane County's opposition to expansion really represents an economic hardship for the tribe, well ... I guess I'd like to see those numbers.

Anyone got any hard data they wanna chuck Chuck's way? You've got about 24 hours to convince me my "no" vote tomorrow is leaving some poor kid in the lurch. Seriously ... I'm asking ...

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Postby ShaneDog » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:08 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:
ShaneDog wrote:They could open any number of highly profitable businesses by leveraging their capital produced by the other casino they own.
No shit! I keep wondering why this isn't discussed more in-depth. I mean, in the past I've heard ridiculously large numbers touted as to how much money per member the tribe pulls down from gaming.

So, if Dane County's opposition to expansion really represents an economic hardship for the tribe, well ... I guess I'd like to see those numbers.

Anyone got any hard data they wanna chuck Chuck's way? You've got about 24 hours to convince me my "no" vote tomorrow is leaving some poor kid in the lurch. Seriously ... I'm asking ...


I posted some data in one of the other threads - mostly taken from the Ho-Chunk website. The casino in Milwaukee has annual profits over $200 million a year making it one of the most profitable entities in Wisconsin (if not the most profitable). The casino in the Dells is substantially larger but may not be as profitable because it's not in the proximity of a large city.

here is something I posted in another thread:

"In 2001, every Ho-Chunk member received annual payments of $8,400 in direct benefit checks. I believe that was the year the casino opened the huge hotel and expanded gaming operations so the checks should be significantly larger now."

"In 2000, the Ho-Chunk tribe had 6,072 enrolled members. (Source: Ho-Chunk Nation website). The Ho-Chunk Casino Hotel and Convention Center in Wisconsin Dells is the fourth largest Indian casino in the nation and the largest in Wisconsin. Source: http://www.jsonline.com/enter/planit/no ... 110200.asp"

"I can't say for sure that the Ho-Chunk of Wisconsin are faring poorly or not but an article in The Hocak Worak, a non-profit periodical published by the Ho-Chunk Nation claims that some tribes are prospering:
"Winnebago tribe prospers from casino profits"
http://www.hocakworak.com/archive/2001/ ... 0808-9.htm "

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Postby Daisy » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:17 pm

I love this moral-absolutism shit. If one is a progressive who disagrees with you on this issue - and finds it more about current-day local policy than about genocide - one is a "reactionary."

This sort of self-righteousness is why, to quote a friend, Progressive Dane should really rename itself Progressive East Isthmus. As long as you take such a self-righteous approach towards the electorate ("You're either with us, or you're with the white terrorists"), you're not going to get much traction with those voters who may have the gall to disagree with you from time to time.

I may disagree with people like beastie who see this as an issue of remedy for past wrongs, but I don't think he's a "reactionary" or whatever because of it. I respect his intentions and his sincerity. Apparently that kind of thing doesn't flow both ways.

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Postby arielbria » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:21 pm

ShaneDog wrote:
arielbria wrote:I�m sure that many are genuine in their concern for what a deep, dark, irresistibly tempting casino would do to the morals of Madison. However, it seems to me that none of us have a leg to stand on when it comes to the morality argument. If the morals are what concerns us, why aren�t we fighting for Native Americans to be given an avenue to better themselves and maintain their culture that ISN�T something we find morally reprehensible.


Who is making the morality argument? I haven't heard one person on the "no" side talking about gambling being immoral.



That is the impression I'm getting from many, but granted I'm hearing this from a very small cross-section of Madison residents. I haven't heard anyone saying flat out that gambling is immoral, but I've heard lots of talk about the unwanted elements it will bring to the community. The Isthmus featured a cover story profiling people who lost their homes, spouses, etc. to gambling, which seemed a bit one-sided to me and kind of put me off the whole no side of the argument in the first place.
So, apparently I'm focused to much on the morality end of things.
That said, it still seems hypocritical to me that we get all up in arms about the economic effect it would have on us when were dealing with such a destitute group of people.

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Postby Chuck_Schick » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:28 pm

ShaneDog wrote:
Chuck_Schick wrote:Anyone got any hard data they wanna chuck Chuck's way?


I posted some data in one of the other threads - mostly taken from the Ho-Chunk website.
Thanks, Shane. I regret my ignorance of your previous post, but I've been reluctant to jump into the fray on this one, lest I feel the need to hurl.

Looks like my vote stands.

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Postby Donald » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:34 pm

I've seen white guilt used by the nuclear industry to try to neutralize opposition to nuclear waste dumps, solid waste dumps, medical waste incinerators and corporate hog farms in Indian country, so I'm pretty immune to the "racist." The fact is the mainly white gambling industry has pretty sucessfully used Indian tribes as a way to establish themselves. I'll admit that the tribes are at least profitting more than they usually do from these enterprizes, but gambling is still a rip off.

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Postby lunatic fringe » Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:54 pm

I can't vote but I think it's a cool idea to have Ho-Chunk finally go into operation. I used to commute past the building when it was being built and at the time it looked like a breath of fresh air on that part of town. It's such a sad group of buildings now isn't it? The Harley Davidson store could use some action and anyone who chings it big might be happy enough to spend. I wouldn't mind that cute little intersection getting a little pick me up.

In addition, have you ever seen the kinds of people who go to those places. It's mostly geriatric. Yea, sure you get a few scum buckets or unfortunate suicidal down on your lucks.....but you are going to get those people any where you go. If they don't give their money to the Ho Chunk, they are going to blow it on some other more sinister addicitions (like booze, sex, drugs, guns and rocknroll).

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Postby lunatic fringe » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:03 pm

Donald wrote: but gambling is still a rip off.
Rip Off Shrip Off, it's all a matter how you look at it. Think of it as entertainment. The people who gamble enjoy what they're doing just as much as any other form of entertainment. I'm not much of a gambler, but from what I've seen, it looks like a lot of fun. I'd love to see some Celebrity Poker at Ho-Chunk.

Has there been any mention of encorporating a venue for live entertainment? Most casinos feature live entertainment. That would be cool.

If the airport gets a couple of nonstops to a major metro, letting Ho Chunk do it's thing could mean a little something for the local entertainment industry. I'm suprised the forons aren't giving it more support.

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Postby wee beastie » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:17 pm

arielbria wrote:why did it take a big, scary casino threatening our lovely, ââ?¬Å?liberalââ?¬? Madison existence to make any of us even give a second thought to the plight of American Indians?


I think you struck at the heart of the matter.
I have had the same thought for several years now, long before the casino issue.

The long and short of it is that the great majority of the anti-casino crowd, never has, doesn't now, and never will, give a flying hoot about Native Americans.
Not a goddamn tinker's damn.

Stuck away on their little reservations, those redskins are Out-of-Sight, Out-of Mind.
That's the way we like our minorities.
When they actually try to get anywhere near a large concentration of white peple, (aka DeJope) by God's Teeth, they must be stopped!
Use whatever rationalization you must, but for the love of Christ, STOP THEM!
Now black and Hispanic people ... we'll they're a problem.
We didn't act quickly enough to set up reservations for them, and now they're all over the damn place. Can't buy an Eskimo Pie without one handing you the change.


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