Madison Fair Wage Campaign

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Will you sign the petition to institute a city minimum wage of 7.75/hr?

Poll ended at Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:46 pm

Workers of the world unite! YES, I'll sign it.
31
72%
Let them eat cake. NO, I'd rather yank Austin's hair.
12
28%
 
Total votes: 43

Donald
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Re: Oops Perhaps big oops

Postby Donald » Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:19 pm

Jattpw wrote:...Part of the plan was to have the minimum wage go to voters as part of the primary in February. Oops, that can't happen because it is not a general election. Of course no one really looked into this fact I guess.

So the referendum will be on the April ballot when County Board Supervisors are elected. The student district that votes liberal will turn out and vote for it. The conservatives in some of the outlying areas will turn out to vote against it. What this does is ruin the opportunity for liberals to pick up seats on the County Board....

...Way to screw up the County Board over an ordinance that affects a bunch of students and teen agers and a few that need it.

Here's a reason why politicians and political hacks should never, ever be involved in initiative and referendum campaigns. If it is the issue that is important, you should be out there convincing people, liberal or conservative, why they should vote for it. Using popular lawmaking to get a political edge for candidates is totally repugnant, and runs counter to a century of progressive reform.

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Postby Jattpw » Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:39 pm

My point is that the County Board decides on everything from the Job Center budget to comprehensive planning with in the county.

Considering budget hits recently, there is a push from the right to limit County services to those in need. Providing swing voters in the April election may be the determining factor.

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Postby wee beastie » Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:54 pm

What the hell makes you think that the only people showing up for the April election are going to be those to vote AGAINST the referendum, and by inference against a liberal/progressive county board member?

If the liberals/progressives can't motivate the electorate to vote for a new minimum wage, then they deserve to forever exist in the minority. Besides, I am tired of the left constantly being afraid of doing something bold because they fear the conservative backlash.
That kind of inaction spurred by fear is exactly why we got in this minority in the first place

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Postby Jattpw » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:29 pm

wee beastie wrote:What the hell makes you think that the only people showing up for the April election are going to be those to vote AGAINST the referendum, and by inference against a liberal/progressive county board member?

If the liberals/progressives can't motivate the electorate to vote for a new minimum wage, then they deserve to forever exist in the minority. Besides, I am tired of the left constantly being afraid of doing something bold because they fear the conservative backlash.
That kind of inaction spurred by fear is exactly why we got in this minority in the first place


The difference is liberals are always motivated to vote because they want to change things. They vote for candidates who would support things like raising the minimum wager. (You remember representative democracy don't you? That's how we used to make policy.)

Conservatives tend not to vote until they feel threatened. Conservatives are drawn to the polls by fear. When a referendum is in play they have a more focussed fear. It gives conservative politicians a much more compelling argument for getting people to vote. Liberals vote because of hope. Liberals always have hope if they have a candidate running so they more often vote. There are more nonvoting conservatives in the districts that could have close raises than there are liberals.

Donald
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Postby Donald » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:33 pm

Jattpw wrote:My point is that the County Board decides on everything from the Job Center budget to comprehensive planning with in the county.

Considering budget hits recently, there is a push from the right to limit County services to those in need. Providing swing voters in the April election may be the determining factor.

I don't understand your concept of "swing voter." Isn't it the goal to get as many people to the polls to vote as possible? Or is it your goal to have issueless elections in order to depress voter turnout?
Last edited by Donald on Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jattpw » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:34 pm

Another important point is we are now supposed to trust a big policy initiative from sponsors who did not even know how the fricken referendum tool they were trying to exploit works.

And we are supposed to trust that they understand all the complicated economics behind this issue?

Donald
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Postby Donald » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:43 pm

Jattpw wrote:Another important point is we are now supposed to trust a big policy initiative from sponsors who did not even know how the fricken referendum tool they were trying to exploit works.

And we are supposed to trust that they understand all the complicated economics behind this issue?

Well, I agree that the way these people developed and rolled out this intiative was lacking. They will have to deal with the lack of trust people are going to have, because the people who are bringing this forward failed to bring people into their trust as the measure was being developed.

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Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:57 pm

The higher the percentage of the electorate that turns out on election day, the better the chances liberal candidates will win. Poli Sci 101. A vote on increasing the minimum wage will help liberal candidates.

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Postby Shifty » Wed Oct 01, 2003 9:01 pm

Buddha, Shakira, and Adam Smith could have presented the petition and folks like Jatt and Donald would still have faulted the motives, presentation, and content. If the only problem with the resolution is that whiners like you two weren't consulted, well boo hoo hoo. You Eyores can vote along with the rest of us nobodies.

With the delay on referendum voting until April, everyone will have plenty of time to shoot off their mouths. Weren't you guys just complaining about too little inclusion?

Two months delay to April is bad, but it's nothing compared to decades of inaction by the "wiser" politicians.


The politics of the whole deal is fascinating. Will the Republicans in the legislature try to outlaw cities from having their own minimums? Can they stop a process already begun? Will Doyle be an ass and sign such a bill and ask nothing in return for workers? Will Doyle be a half-ass and use the leverage of the Madison campaign to deal for his own proposed wage hike plus a ban on city minimums?

I think we're about to get a look-see at real Democratic party values.

Meanwhile, the anti-fairness crowd will have to keep changing the topic because they won't convince people that 5.15 is a fair wage. They would have more success if they could coalesce around defending 6.80, but many of them don't believe in any minimum. Notice that the SJournal editorial never directly says that there should be a minimum or that 5.15 is an adequate minimum.

And many of the opposition don't believe in social service programs, either, and certainly would not agree to increase their taxes to expand these programs. It's important to nail them down on where the money should come from for these programs if they keep using that ruse.

The questions the campaign has to keep asking are the same ones it has been asking:

"Is 5.15 a fair minimum wage?"

"Should taxpayers subsidize employers who refuse to pay a fair wage, or should taxpayers require employers to pay a fair wage?"

"Isn't the current law unfair to employers who do right by their employees yet have to compete with those who do not?"

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Postby Shifty » Wed Oct 01, 2003 9:05 pm

Paco wrote:Shifty, why doncha write that up and send it to the SJournal?


Cussedness, laziness and the continued wish to remain unkown. Maybe someone else has been braver, I've missed the last couple days of papers. And you people with the compliments, stop it, get back to the usual snarkiness. You're making me nervous.

I do notice it took Sun's substance to convince Donald, which I didn't think was possible.

Note to Blaiseââ?‰?Â

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Postby snoqueen » Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:04 am

Shifty wrote:"Is 5.15 a fair minimum wage?"

"Should taxpayers subsidize employers who refuse to pay a fair wage, or should taxpayers require employers to pay a fair wage?"

"Isn't the current law unfair to employers who do right by their employees yet have to compete with those who do not?"



Not to mention

If you will not pay people a reasonable wage, and you will not maintain social services at a level sufficient to meet the needs of people who are not paid a reasonable wage, how do you expect to solve the much more expensive problems that result:

- homelessness

- families with insufficient food

- in the classroom, disruptive, troublesome kids from families in disorder due to financial problems

- people seeking medical care on demand in the emergency room because they cannot afford routine care and cannot afford to pay

- petty crime (theft, bad checks, etc)

- landlords not receiving rent; evictions

- bankruptcies, bad debt

- family breakups; difficulty in enforcing child support arrangements

- people who don't finish school due to the necessity of working to pitch in with family finances; unskilled workers with no realistic chance of further training

Donald
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Postby Donald » Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:02 pm

Shifty wrote:Buddha, Shakira, and Adam Smith could have presented the petition and folks like Jatt and Donald would still have faulted the motives, presentation, and content. If the only problem with the resolution is that whiners like you two weren't consulted, well boo hoo hoo. You Eyores can vote along with the rest of us nobodies.

Sorry, Shirfty, my "whining" comes from a couple of decades of experience with initiative and referendum campaigns. I could care less if I was consulted, but it's clear the three dudes who are doing this did precious little leg work beforehand. It's very easy to get people to sign a petition. It's quite another to win a vote. The who, what and why matter to the very people you will be trying to convince to vote for the issue.

Shifty wrote:With the delay on referendum voting until April, everyone will have plenty of time to shoot off their mouths. Weren't you guys just complaining about too little inclusion?

I'm all for a vote on this issue. The more people voting the better. All I'm saying is that the way these people rolled this out gives me less confidence that they know what they're doing.

Shifty wrote:The questions the campaign has to keep asking are the same ones it has been asking:

"Is 5.15 a fair minimum wage?"

"Should taxpayers subsidize employers who refuse to pay a fair wage, or should taxpayers require employers to pay a fair wage?"

"Isn't the current law unfair to employers who do right by their employees yet have to compete with those who do not?"

I would say you are right about the points to stress, but you have to frame them in a way that elicits a positive response. You're asking people to say "no" to the above questions, then vote "yes." People respond to positives more than negatives. I'd say the best way to sell this is get some nice, likeable minimum wage workers and let them tell their stories, and why an increase in the minimum wage would help them. It's much easier to say yes to a single mom with kids struggling to make ends meet, than to a bunch of politicians.

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Postby Shifty » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:58 am

Donald, you're irritated because Powell, Lindstrom and King don't know what they are doing.

I'm just tickled that they are doing.

Not just mouthing the usual Democratic campaign promise to enact a higher minimum wage.

Not just sitting around contemplating how maybe one day they'd put forward the perfect resolution.

What pisses you off, Mr. Experience, is not the resolution's potential for failure, but it's potential for sucess.

Most of the people who are "angry" because they weren't consulted will fight for and vote for the resolution anyway. Those who won't fight for it probably never would have in the first place. Is this about placating egos among the connected, or about raising the minimum wage for workers? I simply don't see the Three as having gone out off their way to make anyone mad. But even if they had, what the hell, as long as it works.

The surprise petition worked perfectly in preventing the resolution from getting loaded with gadgets and gewgaws and special favors. You yourself have been arguing for all kinds of loopholes for business, for raising taxes to subsidize employers, and for spending these wages that the workers haven't even won yet. Good thing they didn't consult you.

Your recommendation for a happy-talk sales approach, with poster children poor folks ask for sympathy, might work better in other markets. People here are increasingly tired of these kind of oldschool manipulations. And workers and students alike of know that a docile/pathetic image has gotten them little or nothing. Frank talk is both liberating and persuasive. Pour on the syrup if you must, but at least serve it with some honest substance.

Don't change the message from the fairness of 5.15. Our opponents don't want to talk about it, and it's the strongest argument.


How about yard signs: 5.15 JUST AIN'T FAIR


There, negativity and bad grammar. 8)

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Postby blip » Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:33 pm

Jattpw wrote:They vote for candidates who would support things like raising the minimum wage. (You remember representative democracy don't you? That's how we used to make policy.)


Interesting. The argument against the referendum has now broadened to call into question any use of public referenda.

Let's visit that philosophy for a moment, if only to take the wind out of it.
First, if we were to argue for the primacy of representationive democracy we must also grant that such a suppositon presupposes that an elector knows, before electing a politician, the entirety of their stances on all issues in detail, and secondly, trusts that those stances will remain unchanged during the duration of the politician's tenure, and thirdly, trusts that they were told the truth the first time around, and fourthly, actually agrees with the stance of their representative.

...has the laughing died down enough to continue? Thank you. Let's continue.

Next, this is where the dreaded SLIPPERY SLOPE argument is usually invoked. It goes something like this: If we let one little referendum through, by god, the next thing you know we'll be California.
In truth, not only is our referenda system set up much more strictly than California, it is used so very infrequently that such a claim is ludicrous. Are you arguing that we should completely repeal Wis. Stats. 9.20? Are absolutely no legislative powers to be retained by the people of the state of Wisconsin?

The next argument that is usually raised is that the deliberative committee process through which normal legislation passes yields a finer end product. This must be true, because we all know that politicians are not in the slightest bit influenced by lobbying money or campaign donations, and they certainly never add pork to any bills. No sir.

Representational democracy is only one process, it's not the only process.

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Postby Donald » Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:42 am

Shifty wrote:...What pisses you off, Mr. Experience, is not the resolution's potential for failure, but it's potential for sucess.

I find it interesting that you make up off-the-wall shit and assume it's my opinion. What arrogance!!! Are you congenitally wired to think you can read my mind? Why don't you just state your own opinions, and let me state mine?

I really have no interest in engaging you in any further discussion on this issue since you obviously know what I think; you know what all those minimum wage workers think; and you know what all those voters think. We can simply ask Shifty, and he'll tell us all what to think.

Bye, bye.


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