Streetcar study update

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Mister_A_In_Madison
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Postby Mister_A_In_Madison » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:09 pm

Michael Patrick wrote:I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that the consultant found hundreds of millions of dollars in benefits directly tied to streetcars.


There are so many benefits, in fact, that the consulting firm leading the study will open a branch office here!

:roll:

bluethedog
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Postby bluethedog » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:31 pm

Brenda Konkel wrote:I'm ashamed to say, I didn't vote against either time because I caved in to the pressure.

Thanks for being honest.

Let's say the referendum is held. Are it's results the last word on streetcar spending or does the Council still have final say?

Brenda Konkel
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Postby Brenda Konkel » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:29 pm

bluethedog wrote:
Brenda Konkel wrote:I'm ashamed to say, I didn't vote against either time because I caved in to the pressure.

Thanks for being honest.

Let's say the referendum is held. Are it's results the last word on streetcar spending or does the Council still have final say?


Well, I'm not sure it will be the "last word", but the Council could not make a decision to do something that is contrary to the referendum - that's why it is binding - as opposed to advisory. It is also why what the referendum says is so important. My guess is if it didn't pass . . . there would be several more attempts at the binding referendum.

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Postby spanky » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:35 pm

Paco wrote:I'mn still trying to figure out what problem streetcars is going to solve?
Well it's hard to have multi-modal transit options with out multiple modes.

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Postby spanky » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:39 pm

Dulouz wrote:
Bwis53 wrote:Is it true, the Feds are going to pay to build the trolly rail and cars?


I was wondering why Falk was so involved in endorsing council candidates such as Eli Judge. I think that she has the votes on the council to throw streetcars overboard in favor of her superior commuter rail concept.


Am I the only one who wants streetcars and commuter rail?

Why can't we all just get along??

jhain
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Postby jhain » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:44 pm

spanky wrote:Am I the only one who wants streetcars and commuter rail?


Nope. There are at least two of us.

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Postby Chuck_Schick » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:57 pm

spanky wrote:Am I the only one who wants streetcars and commuter rail?

Honestly, at this point I'd settle for whichever one will quell this inane debate the fastest.

Yeah, I know ... but a guy can dream.

lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:41 pm

jhain wrote:
spanky wrote:Am I the only one who wants streetcars and commuter rail?


Nope. There are at least two of us.


I guess I'm not adverse to looking into either, but one question I still have (mainly about commuter rail) is is Madison really big enough, either in terms of population or landmass? I just compared some maps, and it would seem that the distance from one end of Madison to the other is *roughly* the distance between the loop and the Tri-State in Chicago. The Metra lines in Chicago are much longer, and go through areas of much higher density than around here. And traffic is a heck of a lot worse. And Madison doesn't have the magnet of a downtown that Chicago does.

Thoughts?

Michael Patrick
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Postby Michael Patrick » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:51 pm

Mister_A_In_Madison wrote:
Michael Patrick wrote:I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that the consultant found hundreds of millions of dollars in benefits directly tied to streetcars.


There are so many benefits, in fact, that the consulting firm leading the study will open a branch office here!

:roll:


And gee whiz, the consulting firm stands to benefit, eh?

Dulouz
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Postby Dulouz » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:05 pm

spanky wrote:
Dulouz wrote:
Bwis53 wrote:Is it true, the Feds are going to pay to build the trolly rail and cars?


I was wondering why Falk was so involved in endorsing council candidates such as Eli Judge. I think that she has the votes on the council to throw streetcars overboard in favor of her superior commuter rail concept.


Am I the only one who wants streetcars and commuter rail?

Why can't we all just get along??


Actually, I not only want both, I also want high speed between Chi-Milw-MSN-TwinCities!

I just think that the street car is the last not first piece of the puzzle. If I were Milwaukee, I would be building the train to Madison now.

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Postby gargantua » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:16 pm

I think Madison's unique geography, in which traffic is funneled through the Isthmus, makes comparisons with other cities potentially misleading. I think commuter rail makes more sense to do first....before we have a congestion crisis.

The thing that has been bothering me about the Mayor's "vision" is that there is a social engineering component that kind of reminds of me of....IZ.

And we know how well that's working.

The social engineering is the part in which everyone lives downtown and takes the streetcar. I don't see a Cub Foods or a Woodmans on that street car route. Or Trader Joe's or Macy's for that matter. I don't think the whole premise is particularly realistic, frankly. Hopefully a lot of people will choose to live downtown. But they're not giving their cars up, not as long as there is something to use as fuel.

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Postby Like_Stink » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:22 pm

lukpac wrote: I guess I'm not adverse to looking into either, but one question I still have (mainly about commuter rail) is is Madison really big enough, either in terms of population or landmass? I just compared some maps, and it would seem that the distance from one end of Madison to the other is *roughly* the distance between the loop and the Tri-State in Chicago. The Metra lines in Chicago are much longer, and go through areas of much higher density than around here. And traffic is a heck of a lot worse. And Madison doesn't have the magnet of a downtown that Chicago does.

Thoughts?


Yup. I think we're far, far from having the density to support the streetcar option. It'll be a bit of a gimmick and a sinkhole for $$$. Commuter rail is a different story.

Nice to be a planner, but outside the process. Don't have to feel so unclean.

Dulouz
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Postby Dulouz » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:36 pm

lukpac wrote:I guess I'm not adverse to looking into either, but one question I still have (mainly about commuter rail) is is Madison really big enough, either in terms of population or landmass? I just compared some maps, and it would seem that the distance from one end of Madison to the other is *roughly* the distance between the loop and the Tri-State in Chicago. The Metra lines in Chicago are much longer, and go through areas of much higher density than around here. And traffic is a heck of a lot worse. And Madison doesn't have the magnet of a downtown that Chicago does.

Thoughts?


Your confusing the projects. Commuter rail would connect municipalities in Dane County. Essentially a line could run from Mazomanie to Marshall through madison (and connect others as well). This would allow a lot of people who have been forced out of Madison housing to get to Madison jobs and services. The county already spends a significant amount of money transporting the elderly in the outlying communities to shop in Madison. Further, Sauk City could also come on line and maybe even Richland Center.Other routes might include Mt. Horeb through Verona (reducing congestion on 151), etc.

Ed Breakfast
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Postby Ed Breakfast » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:46 pm

Commuter rail could eventually do that. The Transport 2020 proposals, however, only go from Middleton and/or Mineral Point Road in the West to East Town and/or the airport in the East. It's much like the streetcar plan in that you really start seeing benefits in the later stages. The initial build out just gets the ball rolling.

I'd love to see streetcars, commuter rail, and improved inter city connections.

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Postby Darthcrank » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:48 pm

spanky wrote:
Paco wrote:I'mn still trying to figure out what problem streetcars is going to solve?
Well it's hard to have multi-modal transit options with out multiple modes.


The trick is, if you have to pay so much for one modal system that you can't continue to fund the others, you're right back where you began with one mode.

A *very* expensive mode that will be trying to cater to the rich condo dwellers who will likely refuse to give up their cars anyway.


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