Streetcar study update

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robbie webber
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Postby robbie webber » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:45 am

Darthcrank wrote:
spanky wrote:
Paco wrote:I'mn still trying to figure out what problem streetcars is going to solve?
Well it's hard to have multi-modal transit options with out multiple modes.


The trick is, if you have to pay so much for one modal system that you can't continue to fund the others, you're right back where you began with one mode.


Sort of like all the money we spend funding roads, so that logical other modes, in use around the world, are always fighting for the crumbs?

And no, gas taxed do NOT fund all the roads. Local roads - the ones you drive on the majority of the time - are almost entirely funded through local property taxes. According to a 1992 WisDOT study, all roads, including the major highways, still require 40% of their funding come from local sources. Again, mostly property taxes.

Why are we considering a referendum for a streetcar system when we don't have a referendum for all the multi-million dollar road projects? That would be very interesting - do YOU want to fund the $160 million Verona Rd/West Beltline project? Yup, city funds may be required. How about the new Mineral Point Rd/Junction Rd intersection, estimated at about $16 million? That even more likely to be local funds.

harrissimo
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Postby harrissimo » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:06 pm

robbie webber wrote:Sort of like all the money we spend funding roads, so that logical other modes, in use around the world, are always fighting for the crumbs?

And no, gas taxed do NOT fund all the roads. Local roads - the ones you drive on the majority of the time - are almost entirely funded through local property taxes...

Why are we considering a referendum for a streetcar system when we don't have a referendum for all the multi-million dollar road projects?


You would have a valid point if streetcars were an effective cost-efficient means of transportation. But they are not. Streetcars will be a boondoggle. Streetscars won't even begin to solve the transportation issues facing Dane county. Of all dumbass ideas streetcars wins the prize for being the dumbest.

Roads,with all their problems notwithstanding, get me where I want to go when I want to go. I am willing to spend the money to fix the Verona Road entrance/exit. It's worth it.

I'm not willing to piss away the money for streetcars.

Mister_A_In_Madison
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Postby Mister_A_In_Madison » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:09 pm

robbie webber wrote:Why are we considering a referendum for a streetcar system when we don't have a referendum for all the multi-million dollar road projects? That would be very interesting - do YOU want to fund the $160 million Verona Rd/West Beltline project? Yup, city funds may be required. How about the new Mineral Point Rd/Junction Rd intersection, estimated at about $16 million? That even more likely to be local funds.


Perhaps Madison should lead the way and put those projects to a vote as well (since the Verona Road/Beltline project is - as originally envisioned and as recently revamped - a colossal waste).

Would a negative vote have any impact on the DOT's plans?

pulsewidth modulation
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Postby pulsewidth modulation » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:42 pm

robbie webber wrote:Why are we considering a referendum for a streetcar system when we don't have a referendum for all the multi-million dollar road projects? That would be very interesting - do YOU want to fund the $160 million Verona Rd/West Beltline project? Yup, city funds may be required. How about the new Mineral Point Rd/Junction Rd intersection, estimated at about $16 million? That even more likely to be local funds.


At least I can use those, unlike a trolley.

You make me laugh. You are citing how progressive taxation works. The people who use a roadway the most should have to put up the most money to fix it right? If we don't keep the roads operating, then what?

I'm all for it. Put it to a vote. Oh yea, you can't. As you have stated, part of the funding still comes from other state and federal programs.

City government talks about keeping it local, until they see the federal money dangling in front of their faces. The great society has finally come back and hit urban socialists in the face. Maybe you shouldn't have built all those highways back in the 60's and called them "public roadways."

What The
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Postby What The » Tue May 08, 2007 1:15 pm

Speaking as someone who lived in a city with an extensive streetcar system (Toronto) and used them frequently, I can speak firsthand about how convenient streetcars can be.

But only if they have dedicated lanes. When they run in regular traffic, they only contribute to congestion. With their own lanes however, and independent signals and pedestrian islands, they're incredibly convenient.

Don't suppose dedicated lanes are in the plans?

One other thing is that they're loud when they're making turns. If it's a single "line" rather than a circuit, and they're making a tight 360 to point in the other direction.....mmm, that's some A-1 metal-on-metal squeal.

Mister_A_In_Madison
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Postby Mister_A_In_Madison » Tue May 08, 2007 1:47 pm

What The wrote:Don't suppose dedicated lanes are in the plans?


As of the last public hearing I attended, the streetcar lines were supposed to be running in a traffic lane.

I suppose that could change before the final report.

equuspower
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Postby equuspower » Tue May 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Mister_A_In_Madison wrote:
What The wrote:Don't suppose dedicated lanes are in the plans?


As of the last public hearing I attended, the streetcar lines were supposed to be running in a traffic lane.

I suppose that could change before the final report.


That's the main problem with the idea of a "streetcar". As has been pointed out - we already have a traffic problem in the downtown isthmus area. Adding streetcars will just add more congestion. A dedicated lane MIGHT solve that aspect - and so would raising it above the traffic as a mono-rail.

However, I think it's more important that we get the "bedroom communities" connected with a rail system that would lower the amount of cars coming into Madison. BUT, considering how everyone loves their cars, I somehow don't think that commuter rails will solve the problem.

It would be great, however, to have fast, frequent rail service from Madison to Milwaukee, Chicago, the twin cities. But the love affair with the car probably won't make it happen.

makmadison
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Postby makmadison » Thu May 10, 2007 11:47 pm

This is the biggest waste of money.

Take this money and put it towards Metro, taxis and other transportations options.


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