Downtown Drinking

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Chuck_Schick
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:11 am

bmasel wrote:What's not so clear is whether reducing the density of bars reduces the density of drinking.

I'll go ya one further. Anyone who thinks bar density is at all proportional to drunken college hijinks is full of so much horseshit you could fertilize the Isthmus three times over.

Close all the bars; the kids will just have their of-age friends buy them liquor.

There used to be this crazy law called Prohibition. The goal was to eliminate alcohol altogether. How'd that work out, I wonder?

It may be a coon's age and fifty acid trips since you were one, Stu, but kids are going to do stupid things and get wasted and be irresponsible. Shifting the full burden of that responsibility to bars is utter crap.

If a bar plies these amateur retards with cheap drinks, the shit'll hit the fan sooner or later and the carrot chunks will fall where they may. I'm all for bringing on the heat when a place like the Majestic or the KK (or fill-in the blank) regularly demonstrates that it can't control its clientele.

But pretending you're doing anyone a service with this density nonsense is kind of like thinking you're doing the world a favor by having yourself sterilized to preclude your giving birth to the next Hitler. Sure, your deluded ass might be able to sit back comfortably as the world spins on, knowing you've "done all you can," but in reality you've done dick, and at the end of the day you're resting your empty head on the downy pillow of false pretense. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night ...

The issue of drinking responsibly (and, more broadly, the issue of growing up to be a responsible member of society) is an issue that demands to be addressed long before kids leave the nest.

I'm not suggesting parents are the sole source of the problem, but honestly, a parental density plan would make as much sense as what you're proposing, and would probably be twice as effective. But this is a free country and stupid, ineffectual people are permitted to procreate, just like everyone else. And there is no law, nor should there be, that says we have to hold the hands of these idiots' progeny until they stumble their way into adulthood.

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Postby spanky » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:32 am

Stu Levitan wrote:The density reduction plan is not a panacea or the whole solution. But I think it's a start -- the fewer bars the police have to monitor, the more monitoring they can give to the problem bars and house parties. Doesn't that seem logical?


Actually no, it seems completely backwards.

"Let's let the old guard responsibly run bars slowly go out of business as owners retire so that we can keep the problem bars in action were we can "monitor" the problems they create more easily??" Bullshit.

What seems logical is to grab our collective balls and shut down bars that are over serving and creating dangerous situations - that seems logical. Especially since the tools are in place to remove these tools - so to speak.

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Postby spanky » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:36 am

Stu Levitan wrote:Limiting the number of bars downtown addresses more public health and safety issues than just excessive drinking, primarily assaultive violence. Or do you discount the many studies that show a strong correlation between density of alcohol outlets and rates of violent crime?


Let's see that data for Madison, and don't be pullin out some bullshit study about Green Bay where the ratio of bars to restuaruants in their density plan governed BID is completely reversed from the ratio in Madison's BID.

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Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:44 am

Darthcrank wrote:I find it interesting that the list of bars the city currently has suits against excludes Brothers. which each and every weekend has cops breaking up fights that spill out into the street, and has for years on end.

How do some bars get targeted with lawsuits, while certain bars, like Brothers, seem to skate by without mention?


I find it interesting that the official files of the Madison Police Dept. don't support your statement. Would you have some supporting evidence for your claim? That would make a really interesting aspect of my story -- MPD covering up for problem bar. I mean, having to break up fights "each and every weekend ... for years on end" -- that's the kind of thing you would expect to see reports on, yes? Why do you think those reports don't exist?

You weren't engaging in some hyperbole to make a rhetorical point in the absence of evidence, were you?

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Postby spanky » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:46 am

Dulouz wrote:
spanky wrote:How does a plan that reduces licenses through attrition help the situation when the problem bars continue operate and cause problems without being affected by this proposed resolution cum ordinance.


It will encourage the city to go the arduous process of revocation. Once that process begins, it will be in the owner's best interest to sell the bar or risk losing 100% of the value of the business once the site is banned from a license.


The laws to revoke are already in place with the result being uh, revocation. Why would the density Plan (limiting licenses through attrition) provide any encouragement similar to what you outline above: short answer? It won't.

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Postby bmasel » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:58 am

Stu, do your stats indicate any reltionship between violent incidents and Badger football home games?

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Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:05 am

Yes, there's a very direct correlation between home games and alcohol-related offenses of all kinds, including violent assaults.

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Postby spanky » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:14 am

Stu Levitan wrote:Yes, there's a very direct correlation between home games and alcohol-related offenses of all kinds, including violent assaults.


And a direct relationship between strip clubs and the shiny heads of their attendees: obviously strip clubs cause baldness.

Seriously where is the data on the correlation of Madison drinking establishments and violence you cited above?

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Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:27 am

MPD prepares a monthly report called Tavern Files, recapping all calls of interest to licensed establishments, or off-premises calls related to alcohol.

And I can't believe you're flaming me for answering Ben's question.

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Postby spanky » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:35 am

Stu Levitan wrote:MPD prepares a monthly report called Tavern Files, recapping all calls of interest to licensed establishments, or off-premises calls related to alcohol.

And I can't believe you're flaming me for answering Ben's question.


For the record, because my poorly edited post wouldn't show this, I am not flaming (I didn't even know I knew how to -er- flame) you for your response to Ben, I am just trying to get you to admit that they arte no specific, relevant studies that show the success of a density plan in a community similar to Madison.

Furthermore, the Density Plan outlines no specific performance measures, and has (as of yet) no sunset provision, and as a result its success will be indeterminable.

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Postby lordofthecockrings » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:43 am

Stu Levitan wrote:the fewer bars the police have to monitor, the more monitoring they can give to the problem bars and house parties. Doesn't that seem logical?

No.
Follow your own logic: fewer bars means more people packed into already existing bars, thereby increasing the likelihood of violence breaking out. So, the cops might have fewer places to patrol, but the likelihood of problems arising has surely increased. I mean, which do you think is more likely to lead to violence, Stu - 1000 drunks spread out over 6 bars or the same thousand drunks crammed into only 2 or 3? The number of drinkers doesn't decrease when you decrease the number of drinking establishments, Stu - only the number of available barstools does. A much more rational solution to the problem of too many drunken fights at bar time is to stagger bar times, but that's simply too sensical to ever gain a foothold, right?

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Postby lordofthecockrings » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:44 am

spanky wrote: I am just trying to get you to admit that they arte no specific, relevant studies that show the success of a density plan in a community similar to Madison.


Sounds like ol' Stu might have been engaging in some hyperbole to make a rhetorical point in the absence of evidence, doesn't it?

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Postby dstol62 » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:03 pm

I hate to repeat myself from earlier threads along a similar topic, but here goes.

The University once again has succesfully kept itself out of this equation by not insisting that students who do not exercise in civilized conduct have no punitive response for their behavior. At the minimum, any student who commits battery to another person or vandalism to any local business should be suspended as a student. The University seems to be more concerned about it's image than coming up with solutions to this issue-but hey, there are more important things to think about, like the football coach's salary...

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Postby Stomach » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:05 pm

lordofthecockrings wrote:A much more rational solution to the problem of too many drunken fights at bar time is to stagger bar times, but that's simply too sensical to ever gain a foothold, right?


I have not heard specifics on how this would work but it reminds me of when Illinois had a higher drinking age than Wisconsin and those close to the border would come to Wisconsin to drink, then drive home.

I see drunken partiers rushing to the bars with later bar times and problems stacking up there.

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Postby Chuck_Schick » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:40 pm

lordofthecockrings wrote:
Stu Levitan wrote:the fewer bars the police have to monitor, the more monitoring they can give to the problem bars and house parties. Doesn't that seem logical?

No.
Follow your own logic: fewer bars means more people packed into already existing bars, thereby increasing the likelihood of violence breaking out.

Not to mention that fewer bars means more house parties, which are harder for cops to patrol in the first place. Again, if you think this law would make life easier for our men and women in blue, you're a straight-up fool.

And I love that statement, Stu. You essentially admit that limiting the number of bars does nothing to eliminate the problem establishments. One might well wonder what the mutherfucking goal of this whole exercise is in the first place, having encountered that little rhetorical dollop of spittle foam.

So again, I ask you (not that you'll entertain my questions, 'cause you're a friggin' dodging-and-weaving lightweight), wouldn't the better plan be ... oh, I dunno ... eliminating the problem establishments and letting those upstarts who demonstrate they can operate a bar responsibly do so?


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