Downtown Drinking

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Stu Levitan
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Postby Stu Levitan » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:38 pm

So you think 19-year-olds blowing a .29 bac aren't a cause for concern?

You think 75 underage conveyances to detox in one semester isn't cause for concern?

You think rampant sexual assault and aggravated batteries aren't cause for concern?

Odd view of public health, safety and welfare you've got.

And, btw -- brush up on your commerce clause and anti-trust law. The density plan -- which you have read, yes? -- is not an unlawful restraint of trade.

TAsunder
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Postby TAsunder » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:17 pm

There's rampant assaults due to drinking? When and where?

Marvell
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Postby Marvell » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:32 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:So you think 19-year-olds blowing a .29 bac aren't a cause for concern?


Having just turned 40, my days of caring about what 19-year-olds are blowing are officially over.

gargantua
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Postby gargantua » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:27 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:So you think 19-year-olds blowing a .29 bac aren't a cause for concern?

You think 75 underage conveyances to detox in one semester isn't cause for concern?

You think rampant sexual assault and aggravated batteries aren't cause for concern?

Odd view of public health, safety and welfare you've got.

And, btw -- brush up on your commerce clause and anti-trust law. The density plan -- which you have read, yes? -- is not an unlawful restraint of trade.


Not agreeing with a bad solution is not the same as a lack of concern Stu.

spanky
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Postby spanky » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:31 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:So you think 19-year-olds blowing a .29 bac aren't a cause for concern?

You think 75 underage conveyances to detox in one semester isn't cause for concern?

You think rampant sexual assault and aggravated batteries aren't cause for concern?

Odd view of public health, safety and welfare you've got.


How does a plan that reduces licenses through attrition help the situation when the problem bars continue operate and cause problems without being affected by this proposed resolution cum ordinance.
Last edited by spanky on Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stu Levitan
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Postby Stu Levitan » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:22 pm

When snootyelites says
This drinking plan is a joke and the assumptions on which it is based is even bigger joke.

Madison has alcohol problem like we have a cold weather problem.


I take that as a denial of any problem relating to high-risk drinking.

The density reduction plan is not a panacea or the whole solution. But I think it's a start -- the fewer bars the police have to monitor, the more monitoring they can give to the problem bars and house parties. Doesn't that seem logical?

Based on my review of the data, I think there's a lot of dangerous behavior going on relating to excessive and underage drinking. This isn't a moral issue -- it's one of health, safety and welfare. You know, the things that governments are supposed to look out for.

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Postby bmasel » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:44 pm

What's not so clear is whether reducing the density of bars reduces the density of drinking. At least on off nights, less bars means each is more crowded, so that staff has a harder time seeing confrontations before they turn into fights.

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Postby Dulouz » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:48 pm

spanky wrote:How does a plan that reduces licenses through attrition help the situation when the problem bars continue operate and cause problems without being affected by this proposed resolution cum ordinance.


It will encourage the city to go the arduous process of revocation. Once that process begins, it will be in the owner's best interest to sell the bar or risk losing 100% of the value of the business once the site is banned from a license.

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Postby snootyelites » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:01 pm

History teaches us left wing demagogues are at least as bad or worse than right wing demagogues. What is happening in downtown Madison is the Progressive Party is proving it is not so progressive. They want to nail every last student to the crucifix so that the condo owners will be happy.

You got a retired librarian, bunch of alcohol counselors that are part of the Capitol Neighborhoods and a wanna be DA trying to tell people not to shake their hips.

This is freaking FOOTLOOSE all over again but we are not a small town in Indiana or is that Kentucky? The librarian can move back to Phoenix - where she came from.

Yeah belittling people is something you guys have been doing for years. Now taste little medicine of your own.

Make no mistake the Capitol Neighborhoods and the city planning department want to create student ghettos and projects. There is not one mixed use condo-apartment complex in downtown? why do you think that is? They shot down a healthclub, restaurants etc and good projects that would have assisted in policing downtown.

The general dislike of businesses is the main reason. The alcohol issue is only a symbolic issue. Then you have this.

http://www.capitolneighborhoods.org/pdf/quintonsbar.pdf

http://www.madison.com/archives/read.ph ... 080344.php

:roll:

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Postby Darthcrank » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:57 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:So you think 19-year-olds blowing a .29 bac aren't a cause for concern?

You think 75 underage conveyances to detox in one semester isn't cause for concern?

You think rampant sexual assault and aggravated batteries aren't cause for concern?

Odd view of public health, safety and welfare you've got.

And, btw -- brush up on your commerce clause and anti-trust law. The density plan -- which you have read, yes? -- is not an unlawful restraint of trade.


I call bullshit.
Is there already laws against underage drinking? yes.
Installing cameras and police officers in every house party would address your concerns, but not this proposal.
This is nothing more than established businesses partnering with the power of government to squash competition before it can start.
Why don't you just come clean with your intentions and declare Madison a dry city? At least then I could respect you and your ilk for honesty.

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Postby Spoken Word » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:31 am

This is one area where Soglin has it nailed down tight: he's been railing on and on like a deranged lunatic for years that the rampant drinking at HOUSE PARTIES is the primary problem, and whatta ya know (no, not you, Feldman) he's right (or, in my opinion he's damn right).

19 year olds aren't even supposed to be in the bars in the first place. What the fuck?!

Limiting the amount of bars downtown to try to combat a drinking problem is similar to/like a 300 pound person getting a fancy haircut to try to look good.

Stu Levitan
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Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:00 am

Limiting the number of bars downtown addresses more public health and safety issues than just excessive drinking, primarily assaultive violence. Or do you discount the many studies that show a strong correlation between density of alcohol outlets and rates of violent crime?

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Postby Dulouz » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:40 am

snootyelites wrote:There is not one mixed use condo-apartment complex in downtown? why do you think that is? They shot down a healthclub, restaurants etc and good projects that would have assisted in policing downtown.


Uh, Capitol Fitness at Butler St. and E. Wash?

But, yeah, you are right about the CNI--they are a bunch of old farts who suck the joy out of living.

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Postby bluethedog » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:44 am

Stu Levitan wrote:Or do you discount the many studies that show a strong correlation between density of alcohol outlets and rates of violent crime?

It depends. If such studies are comparing non-regulated densities it is not surprising. I would assume densities to be higher in downtown Madison vs. Salt Like City because there's a greater demand for alcohol? And yes, crime would be higher in Madison, all else being equal.

But if you're talking regulated density I'm not sure it holds water. You'd be changing the supply but not the demand. Your conclusion might make sense if the demand dried up because the supply was low but that won't happen.

Are there studies that have shown violent crime to go down AFTER density is artifically decreased?

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Postby Darthcrank » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:56 am

Stu Levitan wrote:Limiting the number of bars downtown addresses more public health and safety issues than just excessive drinking, primarily assaultive violence. Or do you discount the many studies that show a strong correlation between density of alcohol outlets and rates of violent crime?


I find it interesting that the list of bars the city currently has suits against excludes Brothers. which each and every weekend has cops breaking up fights that spill out into the street, and has for years on end.

How do some bars get targeted with lawsuits, while certain bars, like Brothers, seem to skate by without mention?


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