Hooray for Kathy Griffin!

How can cultural elitists like ourselves put TV in the Culture category? Well, where the hell else is it going to fit?
Galoot
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Postby Galoot » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:58 am

I'm a hardcore atheist, but I have to agree with Igor on this one. The communist regimes of the 20th century are responsible for over 100 million deaths. This is well documented in "The Black Book of Communism" by Courtois, Werth, Panné, and Paczkowski.

Of course, the common thread between these leaders is that they were communist, and it just so happens that most communist leaders are also atheists. They weren't killing people for the cause of atheism, but for the "secular religion" of communism.

But atheists still have to face the fact that atheist leaders are responsible for horrific bloodshed over the last 100 years. Atheism doesn't lead to bloodshed, of course. But neither does atheism necessarily lead to peace and safety. It is simply the lack of belief in any gods.

pulsewidth modulation
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Postby pulsewidth modulation » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:41 am

Igor wrote:Pol Pot kills more people before 6 AM than most inquisitors do all day.


Pol Pot was a left wing collectivist. What's your point?

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Postby Bwis53 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:16 am

Go ahead and hate your neighbor. You can always justify it in the end...


I've been watching Kathy's career for a long time. When she had the trouble with booze and losing her kids, she wasn't a shit head about it. She could have been a total bitch, but she took it with grace and humility.
Last edited by Bwis53 on Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

pulsewidth modulation
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Postby pulsewidth modulation » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:16 am

Galoot wrote:I'm a hardcore atheist, but I have to agree with Igor on this one. The communist regimes of the 20th century are responsible for over 100 million deaths.


True.

All I would do is point out the similarities between state religions, such as communism, and mono-theistic religions, such as catholicism, that center themselves around concepts, other than humanism, as a means to an end order. They both adhere to similar principals such as: divine/central order and planning, group subordination to authority; or the group itself, disdain for the recognition of human rights (humanism), sexism, convergent and controlled messaging, and rigorous "rules" and "laws" that do not apply equally onto those under the self appointed authority.

ALL religions, state or spiritual, exhibit these traits.

Humans need order and guidance. But, not all humans are addicted to order and guidance as a means to an end. Some are satisfied with being imperfect and not knowing everything.

To claim totalitarian states solely revolved around rejections of god and religion in order to form ultimate "godless" (IE, atheist) states, while justifying atrocities as a means to and end, is ridiculous. This is what Igor is trying to claim.

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Postby Ducatista » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:30 am

Bwis53 wrote:When she had the trouble with booze and losing her kids...

I think you're thinking of Paula Poundstone.

Bwis53
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Postby Bwis53 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:14 pm

Doh! You might be right. Been awhile since I watched cable. There's this whole crop of comedians, I've watched for a long time. I'm still a Griffin fan.

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Postby Igor » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:17 pm

pulsewidth modulation wrote:To claim totalitarian states solely revolved around rejections of god and religion in order to form ultimate "godless" (IE, atheist) states, while justifying atrocities as a means to and end, is ridiculous. This is what Igor is trying to claim.


Actually, what I claimed was:

"Atheist leaders long ago passed religious ones in total murder and torture tonnage, FWIW."

Then, I was asked to provide a link, which I did.

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Postby lordofthecockrings » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:41 pm

Igor wrote:
Actually, what I claimed was:

"Atheist leaders long ago passed religious ones in total murder and torture tonnage, FWIW."

Then, I was asked to provide a link, which I did.
Not saying you're right or wrong here but I'd need to see how you're adding up those numbers to arrive at your conclusion. Good ol' thread-killer Hitler, if the highest estimates are used, outdoes everyone else on the entire Genocide list COMBINED and suggesting that he was an atheist is, to borrow a phrase from one of your earlier posts, "so off the mark that it is laughable."

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Postby Igor » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:06 pm

lordofthecockrings wrote:
Igor wrote:
Actually, what I claimed was:

"Atheist leaders long ago passed religious ones in total murder and torture tonnage, FWIW."

Then, I was asked to provide a link, which I did.
Not saying you're right or wrong here but I'd need to see how you're adding up those numbers to arrive at your conclusion. Good ol' thread-killer Hitler, if the highest estimates are used, outdoes everyone else on the entire Genocide list COMBINED and suggesting that he was an atheist is, to borrow a phrase from one of your earlier posts, "so off the mark that it is laughable."


Actually, Mao is ahead of Hitler on the provided list. Didn't claim that Hitler was an atheist, although it might be a stretch to refer to him as a religious leader.


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Postby lordofthecockrings » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:59 am

Igor wrote:Actually, Mao is ahead of Hitler on the provided list.
I was specifically referring only to Genocide list, where Hitler is #1. Again, not saying your statement is right or wrong, I'm saying it depends on how you add up the deaths. There's a difference between people starving under your rule and people being herded into death camps under your rule -- how big a difference is open to interpretation.

And this issue isn't whether someone was a "religious leader" so much as it's a question of whether religion was a cause in peoples death. It's difficult to make a case that Mao or Stalin murdered people "in the name of atheism" but not so hard to argue that Hitler killed "in the name of God." Again, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I just think you're oversimplifying and juggling numbers.

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Postby Igor » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:29 am

lordofthecockrings wrote:
Igor wrote:Actually, Mao is ahead of Hitler on the provided list.
I was specifically referring only to Genocide list, where Hitler is #1. Again, not saying your statement is right or wrong, I'm saying it depends on how you add up the deaths. There's a difference between people starving under your rule and people being herded into death camps under your rule -- how big a difference is open to interpretation.

And this issue isn't whether someone was a "religious leader" so much as it's a question of whether religion was a cause in peoples death. It's difficult to make a case that Mao or Stalin murdered people "in the name of atheism" but not so hard to argue that Hitler killed "in the name of God." Again, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I just think you're oversimplifying and juggling numbers.


No doubt that there is a lot of wiggle room in interpretation. I haven't read enough on the topic to know if the Jewish portion of the Holucaust is most widely considered primarily ethnic or religious genocide, so I will defer to others there. Also, Orthodox and Catholic civilians paid a heavy price as well at the hands of the Nazis, so I'm not sure how that affects things.

As to the idea that the communist sides of Stalin/Mao/Pot did the killing, and not the atheist sides; I don't believe anyone can say. In debates about this, there seems to be a tendency for some to say "no, we only count the peace-loving secular humanist atheists, not the warlike communist atheists". Well, if the religious community only counts the peace-loving hippie Christians and Bhuddists, they look pretty good too... :)

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Postby barney » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:52 am

But back to Kathy Griffin - word on the street is she's about to become Mrs. Woz.

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Postby Bwis53 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:17 pm

barney wrote:But back to Kathy Griffin - word on the street is she's about to become Mrs. Woz.


I took a look at those photos and thought,"Hmmn, I guess there's hope for old love yet!"


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