How long should a ban last?

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jjoyce
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby jjoyce » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:14 pm

scratch wrote:And Jason, you've brought up your haughty disdain for people who post under names other than their real names before.


False. I've never done that.

I have a problem with those who attack others, by name, while hiding themselves behind a pseudonym. I think it's a chump move, as I posted above. That's an example of me pointedly criticizing someone else under my real name, although since I'm really just criticizing the action instead of the person, it stops short of being abusive in my opinion.

Argue, criticize, lampoon, parody, talk trash, whatever and I will only defend your right to post anonymously. I actually love it. Anonymity is part of what makes Forum great and you'll never hear me say anything else. Personal attacks, name-calling and abusive disrespect are different matters, particularly when leveled against those using their real names by those afraid to do likewise.

There was a period in time when a handful of people got bounced for repeatedly participating in what some might charitably call bad faith. They deliberately crapped on the board repeatedly and dared someone to do something about it. Anyone remember the "snazzy" situation with respect to the smoking ban? Those using the term nazi were so insufferable that we subbed the word "snazzy" for it in the forum software. Some decided to protest and that was fine. But we're under no obligation to allow them to throw their tantrums here and take over the boards, so we booted some of them. And when their accounts were deactivated, they struck back with personal stuff on other sites. Again, anonymously.

Because a lot of people like using the tavern analogy, it would be like someone acting like a complete jackass in the bar, being asked to leave and then returning a few days later with ski masks on to vandalize the joint and posting on Yelp that the bartenders are racist (anonymously). And then they show up a few years later asking for bygones to be bygones because they heard the new tap selection was good.

There doesn't seem to be any consensus about how to handle something like that. When I ask people directly, they generally say they'd never put up with that crap, or something like that.

Henry Vilas
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:20 pm

To answer the title question, for some, forever and a day.

scratch
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby scratch » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:28 pm

jjoyce wrote:
scratch wrote:And Jason, you've brought up your haughty disdain for people who post under names other than their real names before.


False. I've never done that.

I have a problem with those who attack others, by name, while hiding themselves behind a pseudonym. I think it's a chump move, as I posted above. That's an example of me pointedly criticizing someone else under my real name, although since I'm really just criticizing the action instead of the person, it stops short of being abusive in my opinion.


Okay, I think I see your point: it's not monikers in and of themselves, it's people who use monikers pointedly criticizing others by name. But that means that only you, Stu, and a few other non-moniker users can criticize Meade (or whoever) by name--unless the moniker users want to give their real names within the posts, which some forons do already.

Ducatista
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Ducatista » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:37 pm

scratch wrote:Okay, I think I see your point: it's not monikers in and of themselves, it's people who use monikers pointedly criticizing others by name. But that means that only you, Stu, and a few other non-moniker users can criticize Meade (or whoever) by name--unless the moniker users want to give their real names within the posts, which some forons do already.

Are you just skimming? Because the paragraph after the one you quoted says this:
jjoyce wrote:Argue, criticize, lampoon, parody, talk trash, whatever and I will only defend your right to post anonymously. I actually love it. Anonymity is part of what makes Forum great and you'll never hear me say anything else. Personal attacks, name-calling and abusive disrespect are different matters, particularly when leveled against those using their real names by those afraid to do likewise.

penquin
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby penquin » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:41 pm

I would like to know exactly what these "personal attacks" were, 'cause it seems you are judging me by association rather than my own behavior. The example you gave doesn't appear to apply to me, 'cause neither "nazi" nor "snazzy" appear in any of my posts.

Ain't saying I wasn't a dick sometimes, but to claim that I was trying to destroy the forum is waaaaaaay over the top. And to keep claiming things I wrote, here or elsewhere, were "anonymous" is as absurd as claiming Samuel Clemens wrote his books anonymously. But that discussion is what peev'd ya off in the first place, so I won't say anything more about here&now.

All that aside, if my presence makes you this uncomfortable then, well...err...you're the only one who can actually do something about it. But I think you've worked up a lot more anger&spite at me than is actually deserved.

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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:45 pm

jjoyce wrote:Those using the term nazi


DRINK!

penquin wrote: 'cause neither "nazi"


AGAIN!

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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby jman111 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:55 pm

jjoyce wrote:Argue, criticize, lampoon, parody, talk trash, whatever and I will only defend your right to post anonymously. I actually love it. Anonymity is part of what makes Forum great and you'll never hear me say anything else. Personal attacks, name-calling and abusive disrespect are different matters, particularly when leveled against those using their real names by those afraid to do likewise.

penquin wrote:I would like to know exactly what these "personal attacks" were...

I think this clearly demonstrates the difficulty some have in discerning criticism from name-calling or personal attacks. I think legitimate criticisms, here and elsewhere, are all-too-often mislabeled as name-calling or personal attacks in attempts to deflect.

jjoyce
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby jjoyce » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:08 pm

penquin wrote:But I think you've worked up a lot more anger&spite at me than is actually deserved.


Allow me to apologize if you've had your feelings hurt by my anger and spite. Is that how you do it?

Others in the community here, those who have not been "been a dick," might be interested in weighing in on this banning issue. And some have. It's an interesting exercise.

People will either believe my characterization of events or not. Just like they might or might not buy whatever you're peddling. I'm not really trying to win an argument here.

scratch
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby scratch » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:29 pm

Ducatista wrote:Are you just skimming? Because the paragraph after the one you quoted says this: {snip}


Thanks for asking. Not merely skimming, though. I don't fully agree with the distinction Jason is making, but so what. My previous post could certainly have been better composed. I don't think there's a right to post anything one wants in an email discussion list, so the Admin can and should make whatever rules they want. Those who disagree are free to depart.

And I think jman's right about members (me included) not always discerning the difference between criticism and the kind of behavior Jason cites. Just like in every other setting.

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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Ducatista » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:46 pm

scratch wrote:I don't fully agree with the distinction Jason is making

Ah, gotcha.

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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby pjbogart » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:40 pm

jjoyce wrote:I have a problem with those who attack others, by name, while hiding themselves behind a pseudonym. I think it's a chump move, as I posted above.


But the people who post under their real names choose to do so, presumably out of some self-interest. Perhaps you're a local politician or a James O'Keefe wannabe and you want the free publicity and forum for your ideas. Presumably, signing your name to your posts encourages you to be more mature and diplomatic, unlike those of us who just blurt out whatever wacky notion is floating around in the puddle of beer between our ears. If you say something outrageous and then attach your name to it, you can expect people to think of less of you.

But Laurence Meade doesn't simply invite scorn over for dinner, he goes out searching for it and gives it a ride to his house. He introduces scorn to his wife and lets it pet his dog. His choice. He could always start a sockpuppet and spam the board all day with the most offensive tripe he can muster.

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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:37 pm

Fair question I think: What justifies banning someone for anything on a forum that purportedly "has no rules?"

Henry Vilas
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Fair question I think: What justifies banning someone for anything on a forum that purportedly "has no rules?"

For your edification.

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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Detritus » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:47 pm

So...what's the decision? Forever, or until they figure out how to set up a new account, whichever comes first?

Mad Howler
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Re: How long should a ban last?

Postby Mad Howler » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:24 pm

Here is my take on the art practiced by Admin -

When in doubt he leaves 'them' out.

(edit) - And saintly patience


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