Cafe Montmartre's Non-Smoking shows are soooooooo.....

Who's making noise in and around Madison? What's new in the business of making music around town? Review shows and CDs here. Please keep all hype in Hype Exchange.

Do you like SMOKE FREE shows as much as I do?

Yes
12
48%
No
13
52%
 
Total votes: 25

jhain
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Re: Cafe Montmartre's Non-Smoking shows are soooooooo.....

Postby jhain » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:53 pm

Mister Blues wrote:I doubt that. Even if there were several successful smoke free bars I think the ban would have still happened.


Mister Blues wrote:I don't believe that there is a realistic market for smoke free bars. It cannot be denied there is a market for smoke filled ones. This legislation only serves to interfere with the market to satisfy a small special interest group.


We disagree on whether the market for this exists. This whole thread was started by someone who obviouly likes smoke-free and is planning to come to another one b/c of that. Based on what I hear from my music customers, people want this. How many, who knows?

You are correct that the ordinance will not allow us to ever know the answer to that question.

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Re: Cafe Montmartre's Non-Smoking shows are soooooooo.....

Postby Mister Blues » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:57 pm

jhain wrote:
Mister Blues wrote:I doubt that. Even if there were several successful smoke free bars I think the ban would have still happened.


Mister Blues wrote:I don't believe that there is a realistic market for smoke free bars. It cannot be denied there is a market for smoke filled ones. This legislation only serves to interfere with the market to satisfy a small special interest group.


We disagree on whether the market for this exists. This whole thread was started by someone who obviouly likes smoke-free and is planning to come to another one b/c of that. Based on what I hear from my music customers, people want this. How many, who knows?

You are correct that the ordinance will not allow us to ever know the answer to that question.


That's ok, there's nothing to say that friends can't disagree! I'm sure that there is a market for smoke free shows, it is the market for smoke free bars that I doubt exists.

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Postby madt0wn » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:33 pm

http://www.tcsg.org/sfelp/economic.htm

Major new review of the quality of studies on the economic effects of smoke-free policies on the hospitality industry

A major study was released in February, 2003 in Tobacco Control Journal which assessed the quality of various studies on the economic effects of smoke-free policies on the hospitality industry. The study, by Scollo, Lal, Hyland & Glantz, found that no-smoking policies in restaurants and bars don't harm business, despite concerted efforts by the tobacco industry to prove otherwise. The researchers trawled online databases and print references for all studies produced on the economic impact of smoking bans in bars and restaurants up to the end of August 2002. They included unpublished tobacco industry research, and in total, assessed the findings of 97 studies. The quality of the studies concluding that smoking bans adversely affected revenues, was poor, the authors found. These studies were four times as likely to use subjective rather than objective measures to estimate impact, and they were 20 times as likely not to be peer reviewed. Further, all the studies concluding that smoking restrictions harmed the hospitality industry were funded by the tobacco industry or its allies; none were funded by sources that were clearly independent of the tobacco industry. Only one of the 31 industry funded studies had been published in a peer reviewed journal compared with almost 40% of those funded from other sources. And none of the industry studies met all the accepted criteria for quality, compared with over a third (35%) of those funded from other sources. None of the 21 quality studies reported a negative impact, while four reported that bans had a positive effect on sales. On the basis of the quality of the evidence, fears that smoking bans in bars and restaurants eat into revenues are unfounded, stated the authors. And policy makers wishing to reduce exposure of employees and patrons to the dangers of secondhand tobacco smoke should be reassured by these findings, said the authors. To access the study, click above.

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Postby The name is Blues » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:02 pm

Yep, that�s the problem with studies; you can skew them to prove whatever it is you want to prove.

When they make the claim that, ââ?¬Å?no-smoking policies in restaurants and bars don't harm businessââ?¬? they are talking about the industry as a whole. This completely ignores that fact that there are individual businesses that are harmed or destroyed by a ban on smoking. I know, itââ?¬â?¢s anecdotal, but itââ?¬â?¢s also real live human beings getting ruined.

What generally happens is that some places do better and others get hurt. For a place with an outside area that could become a ââ?¬Å?smokerââ?¬â?¢s grottoââ?¬? a smoking ban may be a gift from above. The same may be true for a restaurant that loses some drinking customers but more than makes up for it with extra food customers.

Further, to use studies from California or New York is disingenuous as those bans are statewide. Sure, if you live in one of those states and you happen to be close to the border you can simply go out of state, but for the majority in those states that is not the case. Madison�s ban is only citywide. From pretty much any point in Madison there is a suburb 5 to 15 minutes away were you can smoke. This will make the outcome here different.

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Postby citizen » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:40 am

Actually, Blues, I think you could take it one step further. The studies madt0wn provided refer to 'Restaurants and Bars'. I looked for a study that pertained solely to bars, and the only one I could find, while claiming to deal with exclusive data for bars, didn't.

The Effect of Ordinances Requiring Smoke-Free Restaurants and Bars on Revenues: A Follow-Up
Stanton A. Glantz, PhD, and Lisa R. A. Smith
Objectives. The purpose of this study was to extend an earlier evaluation of the economic effects of ordinances requiring smoke-free restaurants and bars.

Methods. Sales tax data for 15 cities with smoke-free restaurant ordinances, 5 cities and 2 counties with smoke-free bar ordinances, and matched comparison locations were analyzed by multiple regression, including time and a dummy variable for the ordinance.

Results. Ordinances had no significant effect on the fraction of total retail sales that went to eating and drinking places or on the ratio between sales in communities with ordinances and sales in comparison communities. Ordinances requiring smoke-free bars had no significant effect on the fraction of revenues going to eating and drinking places that serve all types of liquor.

Conclusions. Smoke-free ordinances do not adversely affect either restaurant or bar sales. (Am J Public Health. 1997;87:1687-1693)


(emphasis mine)

I have worked in restaurants for years and I can tell you that smoke free ordinances definitely increased business for restaurants. So it seems sort of disingenuous to lump bars and restaurants together in a study since it's possible, even probable, that increased restaurant business would mask the decrease in bar business.

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Postby bobbyray » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:28 am

I guess time will tell how the ban impacts local bars. My hunch is that Mr. B. is underestimating the number of nonsmokers who are really happy about this and will certainly go out more as a result. Also, as a person who has been a nonsmoker for about 14 years and was a smoker for about 10 years before that, I know that a smoking ban would NOT have kept me out of bars back when I was hooked. Here are a couple o' factoids to ponder:

-Only about one in five adults in Dane County smokes.
-On average, they smoke about 15 cigarettes a day; only a little over one-third of these smokers smoke a pack a day or more.

So the percentage of people who are really hooked is fairly small. Meanwhile, there's a fairly large population of nonsmokers who may be happy about this. Obviously bars a places where more smoking occurs than is the case elsewhere, so you have to factor that in on the negative impact side. But while I understand and to some degree sympathize with Mr. B's distaste for this sort of government regulation and bigbrotherness, I'm betting that the financial impact will be minimal, and will be positive if anything.

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Postby ShaneDog » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:53 am

I'd like to point out that that article was published in a resected peer-reviewed journal. That means that the authors of the article would probably have vetted the article before printing it and have addressed the questions and issues brought up here. If they say that "none of the 21 quality studies reported a negative impact, while four reported that bans had a positive effect on sales.", they probably know what they are talking about. Therefore, I challange anyone to find a peer-reviewed study that shows that a smoking ban caused a negative impact on sales at bars. BTW, I'm a light smoker and I can't wait for the day that smoking is banned just about everywhere.

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Re: Cafe Montmartre's Non-Smoking shows are soooooooo.....

Postby csm » Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:06 am

Mister Blues wrote:I don't believe that there is a realistic market for smoke free bars. It cannot be denied there is a market for smoke filled ones. This legislation only serves to interfere with the market to satisfy a small special interest group.



Well...one small interest group...the 20 percent of Madison citizens who are smokers...have had it their way for years. Now it's time for the other small interest group, the 80 percent of nonsmokers in madison, to get a chance to see what it's like.

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Re: Cafe Montmartre's Non-Smoking shows are soooooooo.....

Postby Town Crier » Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:25 pm

This is not really Town Crier

csm wrote:
Mister Blues wrote:I don't believe that there is a realistic market for smoke free bars. It cannot be denied there is a market for smoke filled ones. This legislation only serves to interfere with the market to satisfy a small special interest group.



Well...one small interest group...the 20 percent of Madison citizens who are smokers...have had it their way for years. Now it's time for the other small interest group, the 80 percent of nonsmokers in madison, to get a chance to see what it's like.



You are wrong.

Even if it is true that only 20% of the adult populace smokes, it is not true that 100% of the adult populace goes to bars.

Based on years of experience and observation 70% to 80% of bar patrons smoke.

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Postby Town Crier » Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:28 pm

This is not really Town Crier

ShaneDog wrote:I challange anyone to find a peer-reviewed study that shows that a smoking ban caused a negative impact on sales at bars. BTW, I'm a light smoker and I can't wait for the day that smoking is banned just about everywhere.


How about I put you in touch with a few bar owners who have suffered a negative impact?

If you are a smoker why do you want smoking banned?

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Postby Town Crier » Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:38 pm

This is not really Town Crier


bobbyray wrote:I guess time will tell how the ban impacts local bars. My hunch is that Mr. B. is underestimating the number of nonsmokers who are really happy about this and will certainly go out more as a result. Also, as a person who has been a nonsmoker for about 14 years and was a smoker for about 10 years before that, I know that a smoking ban would NOT have kept me out of bars back when I was hooked. Here are a couple o' factoids to ponder:

-Only about one in five adults in Dane County smokes.
-On average, they smoke about 15 cigarettes a day; only a little over one-third of these smokers smoke a pack a day or more.

So the percentage of people who are really hooked is fairly small. Meanwhile, there's a fairly large population of nonsmokers who may be happy about this. Obviously bars a places where more smoking occurs than is the case elsewhere, so you have to factor that in on the negative impact side. But while I understand and to some degree sympathize with Mr. B's distaste for this sort of government regulation and bigbrotherness, I'm betting that the financial impact will be minimal, and will be positive if anything.


I disagree. I understand that nonsmokers are extatic about the ban. Some of them will go out more often as a result. Most will go out at the same rate as before. Most people who don't go to bars now are unlikely to start because of the ban. The ban will not keep me out of bars per se, but it will cause me to spend a lot less time - and money - in bars in Madison. For some the impact will be minimal, for some positive, for some disasterous. The cigar bar is going to die.

All of that being said, my outrage over this type of government action is not just because of the way it negatively impacts my quality of life.

Liken it to the attempts to outlaw flag burning. Flag burning offends me and angers me on a very deep level. I'm an old fart so the flag means something different to me than to others. In spite of that attempts to outlaw the act offend me and outrage me even more. Being a free society means tolerating things that you don't like. If you can't defend the other guy's freedom, you don't deserve any.

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Postby bobbyray » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:21 pm

Another relevant aspect of this issue we haven't discussed in this thread is enforcement. The financial impact of the ban will be affected by how rigorously it is enforced. I've read that in many parts of California nobody pays much attention to the ban.

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Re: Cafe Montmartre's Non-Smoking shows are soooooooo.....

Postby regnad_kcin » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:24 pm

Tara wrote:...refreshing! I went to a CD release party and show for Stephanie Rearick at Cafe Montmartre on April 14th. The show was SMOKE FREE and I really appreciated it when I got home and didn't have to wash my hair 3 times to get the stench out. Also, being an ex-smoker, I wasn't even tempted to "bum a cigarette" from someone. Thank you Cafe Montmartre!



It's not the smoke that makes me gag...perhaps it's the overpriced drinks and yuppie clientele?

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Postby Town Crier » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:02 pm

This is not really Town Crier

bobbyray wrote:Another relevant aspect of this issue we haven't discussed in this thread is enforcement. The financial impact of the ban will be affected by how rigorously it is enforced. I've read that in many parts of California nobody pays much attention to the ban.


Very true. There are places in both CA and NY where the ban is not enforced. I know of at least one place in NYC that just pays the fine every month. That won't work here because too many tickets will cost you your liquor license. Also how much will it cost the taxpayers to enforce the ban versus how much revenue the tickets bring in?

I'm guessing that there will be some places der gestapo won't be checking up on too frequently and others that will get regular visits. This will be another discretionary tool that they use to fuck with people that they want to fuck with. How will they decide wheather to ticket the smoker or the bar or both? It's pig's discretion.

jhain
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Re: Cafe Montmartre's Non-Smoking shows are soooooooo.....

Postby jhain » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:16 pm

regnad_kcin wrote:
Tara wrote:...refreshing! I went to a CD release party and show for Stephanie Rearick at Cafe Montmartre on April 14th. The show was SMOKE FREE and I really appreciated it when I got home and didn't have to wash my hair 3 times to get the stench out. Also, being an ex-smoker, I wasn't even tempted to "bum a cigarette" from someone. Thank you Cafe Montmartre!



It's not the smoke that makes me gag...perhaps it's the overpriced drinks and yuppie clientele?


Tara's talking about a Stephanie Rearick show. Not exactly a yuppie scene... As to the price of drinks, they seem about the same as everywhere - and I've never got a watered down drink there.

I used to be iffy on shows at Montmartre but they have come a long way as a venue. Their new stage and sound system are really nice and it is much less "talkie" than it used to be. Give credit where it is due - they take the music part of the business pretty seriously.


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