Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Who's making noise in and around Madison? What's new in the business of making music around town? Review shows and CDs here. Please keep all hype in Hype Exchange.
Average Joe
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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby Average Joe » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:51 pm

defactobrigade wrote:

Running one or two shows a year doesn't really seem to be cultivating anything like a scene as far as I'm concerned.


Seriously? Accusing Isthmus as not sufficiently supporting the local music scene is akin to accusing NORML for not being sufficiently pro-pot.
Last edited by Average Joe on Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby defactobrigade » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:51 pm

So each band got about 300 dollars then?
Since 275 x 5 = 1375.
1375 - 200 for sound costs - 1175.
1175/4 bands = 294

But something tells me that the Isthmus got a bigger chunk than ANY of the bands did, right?
And yeah of course you should cuz it was yr band on stage playing getting people to a bar.

I spose you could argue you had to pay the venue cuz in some cases you do...but for a show like this I have a hard time believing that they charged you anything obscene for the use of the building, right?
Additionally the prize was probably donated so that cost nothing to you.

Basically this seems like a way to get 275 people to a show and then have a lot of money go back into the paper. NOT about cultivating a scene. If you ran it with the intention of the best band winning that wouldn't be in the economic interest of yr paper since that wouldn't promote the event out to ALL the people that need to come out and vote for their friends band that will ultimately lose and their dollars just went to feed the staff of the Isthmus and NOT the bands that played the show.

I have a feeling bands made somewhere around 100 dollars, which is fine. That's okay, that's a good night. just don't act like yr doing the favor to the scene by having this show and that yr so great for paying em too. NO SHIT YOU SHOULD PAY THEM. THEY SHOULD GET ALL THE DOOR MONEY, they played the shows.
Last edited by defactobrigade on Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby Average Joe » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:58 pm

defactobrigade wrote:NO SHIT YOU SHOULD PAY THEM. THEY SHOULD GET ALL THE DOOR MONEY, they played the shows.


How much should the bands pay for advertising and promotion?

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby defactobrigade » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Average Joe wrote:
defactobrigade wrote:NO SHIT YOU SHOULD PAY THEM. THEY SHOULD GET ALL THE DOOR MONEY, they played the shows.


How much should the bands pay for advertising and promotion?

Nothing. Why should bands pay for promotion? That's ludicrous (I obviously see where you're going with the argument and will address the majority of it below).

Do you book shows or play shows? Please advise if you do, cuz if yr spending money on promotion or advertisement I'd love to know so I can laugh at you for being so stupid. My gut tells me yr just some guy who "thinks" they know how playing shows works. I don't even think Tag has that high of an overhead with advertising other than taking out ads in the Isthmus/Onion/Flyering, but that could be higher than I know. Most of the other promotion is via internet for free and A LOT of it comes from bands working hard/NOT SUCKING. Shows CAN and DO get promoted for free that make lots of money all the time. You act like this is some huge tour/major label operation. This is a fucking show in Madison Wisconsin with Madison Wisconsin Bands. This should cost absolutely 0 dollars to promote WHEN you own the largest indie publication in town. Everyone who knew about the event probably knew about it WELL in advance. And all the other people who later learned about said event would have heard about it from the BANDS.

I do play shows...quite often I'd say...and have for quite some time in Madison. I have NEVER paid for advertising and my shows HAVE been put into the Isthmus/Onion/Other Papers/WORT/WSUM - and said shows have been sold out/packed (even without the help of the Isthmus), this can be done without fancy promotion (which I doubt the Isthmus did for this event). Bands promote their shows all the time FOR FREE. And bands that don't suck usually have no problem getting a loyal following in town without the help of the "press" at large. Additionally I think it's SAFE to argue that the over 50 percent of people who came through the door at this show were FRIENDS OR FAMILY of the bands and hence those bands got them to the show, NOT THE ISTHMUS. So that promotion had nothing to do with the at least 50% of people coming through the door, right?

Additionally if you think they paid a lot of money for advertising for this show, dream on. They print their shit EVERY week REGARDLESS if this show existed. AND the best part? Majestic PROBABLY took a print ad out IN THE ISTHMUS for this show. It was at least on their weekly listings. So THAT promotion ACTUALLY MADE THEM MONEY. There WAS probably some minimal extra promotion, most of which was probably time/hours put in by Isthmus staff for the event and promotion on Radio which I would hope they wouldn't pay for. It'd probably be safe to argue that the staff who put the event on got paid to work on it, and PROBABLY ended up making A LOT more than the individual members of the bands, which is sorta laughable but not surprising. I mean playing in bands is not really a way to make money, but I just don't agree with the Isthmus taking any of the door money. They may have even got a cut of the bar tab for all we know. Sometimes bars pay out of the tab in addition to the door for large shows.
So the people running it make money, plus they get door money, plus they get advertising money from BEER COMPANIES - because last time I DISTINCTLY REMEMBER BANDS ONLY BEING ABLE TO DRINK A CERTAIN TYPE OF BEER BECAUSE THEY were the advertiser - bands got a free 6 pack of beer....great...while who knows what sorta profit the Isthmus would make off that too. And whoever else might have been an advertiser would have paid the Isthmus as well.

I HIGHLY doubt the cost for their advertising of the show would be more than their own advertising revenue would bring in from one issue of the Isthmus alone. And that's a small price to pay if the Isthmus REALLY IS about cultivating a scene, right? Shouldn't they be operating with the intention of cultivating a scene? Isn't that the point of this?! That's inherent in this. Obviously I think the Isthmus has a part in the scene, but I would say if anything it's a small part. I've seen PLENTY of bands get popular in town WITHOUT the help of the Isthmus, so it doesn't really seem to be something that's "running the scene" - And lastly, If you're going to argue that the Isthmus losses money on this thing. Well then you can go take a hike, cuz yr obviously stupid.

So at the end of the day....so the fuck what?
The Isthmus made money. Yeah? So? That's fine. People gotta live. People gotta eat. I obviously am not so stupid to think that they shouldn't be allowed to cash in on this, it's their promotion. But....I guess I just have a problem with them after I had heard that they weren't going to pay the losing band last year. if that's a true story, and words had to be said to get at least some of the door money, well that's just very bad, shady and not something anyone "trying to help the scene" should be caught doing in my opinion. That sorta ruins it for me....

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby Average Joe » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:08 pm

Them's a lot of words. 90% of which I didn't read but I still have the same conclusion as though I would have. You are a dumb-ass. To even suggest promoters are not entitled to make a profit is a non-starter and I suspect you are so talentless that your musical ambitions will be equally fruitful as to the idea that this thread will having any meaning.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby defactobrigade » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:16 pm

Average Joe wrote: I suspect you are so talentless that your musical ambitions will be equally fruitful as to the idea that this thread will having any meaning.

ha. okay. I suck and am talentless.
don't be a pussy, read the whole thing asshole. Promoters ARE allowed to make money, if you read the thing you would have obviously gotten that I agree with that, but I don't agree with the initial stance of the Isthmus last year was to NOT pay the losing band. That was my argument. Since no one from the Isthmus has responded we don't know if that's true or not, but I had heard that from multiple sources. And when a promoter makes MORE than the band....welll.....that's really low. Last time I checked Tag doesn't make more than the band being promoted...EVER. And he's the biggest promoter in town.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby spinseuss » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:27 pm

So, the article said that the winners were high schoolers? Didn't the rules of the contest say that all members have to be 21? I don't care that they won, but we specifically didn't enter because one of our members is underage. Not that we would have won, but that kinda blows.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby defactobrigade » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:59 pm

spinseuss wrote:So, the article said that the winners were high schoolers? Didn't the rules of the contest say that all members have to be 21? I don't care that they won, but we specifically didn't enter because one of our members is underage. Not that we would have won, but that kinda blows.


WOW, ISTHMUS, that's pure bullshit and completely unfair. So I guess just one more reason to believe the Isthmus doesn't know what their doing...Thank you spinseuss for pointing this out:

"All members of the band must be 21 and over..."

THAT WAS THE RULE.
Are you kidding me?
Blatantly disrespecting a rule, Isthmus? They weren't even ALLOWED to be in the Contest AND they won it. Awesome.

ALL the members of that band are underage.
YOU, THE ISTHMUS, KNEW THIS. The band's bio said it:
"We have competed in Launchpad, a statewide battle of the bands for high school students, the last two years and have made it to the finals both times."

I think you OWE it to all the bands that played the event an explanation and an apology.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby mediaman » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Those were the rules for the 2009 contest moron. From this year's article-

"Deadline for entry is Monday, October 18 with voting beginning on October 28. Because we have no alcohol sponsor this year, there is no 21-plus rule."

http://www.isthmus.com/daily/article.php?article=30863

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby spinseuss » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:30 pm

The rule was still listed when clicking the link to register during the registration period. I never read the article since I knew what the contest was all about, I just clicked in to register and cancelled when I came across that in the process.

Again, I don't really care, just saying it was unclear.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby jjoyce » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:12 pm

The incident with Midwest Beat was regrettable, I apologized to them for it and, I believe, did my best to make it right. They were paid and, as I pointed out above, were booked and paid for an event over the summer. Do I also owe you and your band an apology, defactobrigade?

Do we know what we're doing when it comes to putting together a band contest that meets defactobrigade's exacting standards? Apparently not.

It's not free to put stuff like this together, but we ran the contest this year, without a sponsor, because we have heard from the bands that have participated in the past that it's been a good experience. Think it's a cash grab? If so, how well do you think we made out after paying for bandwidth to serve (and continue to serve) each band's MP3, running numerous large-space ads in our paper and staffing a live event?

It's probably fun and therapeutic to anonymously tommygun someone for running a contest you freely entered and didn't win. But the truth is that a lot of people heard bands they normally wouldn't when all was said and done, including yours defactobrigade. Nobody would have predicted that people coming to the Majestic to support Lucas Cates might have left being fans of Crane Your Swan Neck, but that's exactly what happened.
Last edited by jjoyce on Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby depinmad » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:43 pm


defactobrigade
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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby defactobrigade » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:56 pm

jjoyce wrote:The incident with Midwest Beat was regrettable, I apologized to them for it and, I believe, did my best to make it right. They were paid and, as I pointed out above, were booked and paid for an event over the summer. Do I also owe you and your band an apology, defactobrigade?

Do we know what we're doing when it comes to putting together a band contest that meets defactobrigade's exacting standards? Apparently not.

It's not free to put stuff like this together, but we ran the contest this year, without a sponsor, because we have heard from the bands that have participated in the past that it's been a good experience. Think it's a cash grab? If so, how well do you think we made out after paying for bandwidth to serve (and continue to serve) each band's MP3, running numerous large-space ads in our paper and staffing a live event?

It's probably fun and therapeutic to anonymously tommygun someone for running a contest you freely entered and didn't win. But the truth is that a lot of people heard bands they normally wouldn't when all was said and done, including yours defactobrigade. Nobody would have predicted that people coming to the Majestic to support Lucas Cates might have left being fans of Crane Your Swan Neck, but that's exactly what happened.


Thanks for the response. I do appreciate it and yr honesty. While I do agree you solved the problem by ultimately paying them that still doesn't fix the fact that you initially thought you were entitled to the entire door money does it? Additionally "regrettable" - yeah you only regret the incident since someone caught you in the act. What made you think the loser should walk out the door with nothing for their time but yr time was worth the entire door when the BAND got the people there?

You don't owe me shit dude.

It's neither FUN nor Therapeutic to bitch at you about this. The point of this was to make it known to other people of all the little things yr paper/company does that pisses people off within the scene. These are things that other people obviously don't know about and you've obviously proven that these are things you'd rather keep out of their eyes.

to address this:
"If so, how well do you think we made out after paying for bandwidth to serve (and continue to serve) each band's MP3, running numerous large-space ads in our paper and staffing a live event?"

So you're telling me had this event not existed you'd cease publication and the web site for that week/month?

Saying that you're paying additional money to host a handful of MP3's on a Web Site that already hosts THOUSANDS of other files is asinine. I doubt you pay for the bandwidth on the site. If you do, yr stupid. The paper should be paying to host the site with unlimited space/bandwidth, MUCH as my own web site does. The overall cost to pay for hosting in the grand scheme of things is rather low (a month would NEVER cost the amount of money you took in at the door). And now YOU have to pay for large space ads in your own publication?!?!
WHAT?! Really? Did you kick other ads out those particular weeks to make room for your own ads? If so, I would understand saying you paid for the ads, but if you didn't nix any other ads, well then how can you argue that a publication that is putting on an event is also paying their own publication to print ads for said event?! Isn't that just putting money into yr own pocket? So how is that paying money?! And seeing as you couldn't even do the LITTLE work to update the page and were just a bunch of lazy clowns copying and pasting last year's pages proves you shouldn't be running this. If you care about the event, CARE about it. Don't do it half assed.

I do think the idea of the event is good and have already previously mentioned that you're allowed to make money.

But when you try to fuck people over, well then people need to know about that. And attempting to take all of the door last year proves you tried to fuck people over to at least some extent.
Last edited by defactobrigade on Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby defactobrigade » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:00 pm

spinseuss wrote:The rule was still listed when clicking the link to register during the registration period. I never read the article since I knew what the contest was all about, I just clicked in to register and cancelled when I came across that in the process.

Again, I don't really care, just saying it was unclear.

Yeah I SAW this as well. This year's rules weren't still listed that I could find. I just quoted last years since I DISTINCTLY remember seeing the same exact rules when I registered.

If you take on the challenge of running something like this, you should at least be professional enough to proofread every page you post ESPECIALLY CONCERNING THE RULES OF THE EVENT. Well I guess that's expected from a paper who's known to post mysterious photos of bands that aren't actually the band listed for the picture....

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Re: Registration for Band to Band Combat 2010 is open!

Postby jjoyce » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:08 pm

"I doubt you pay for the bandwidth on the site."

You doubt wrong. We own our own server and pay for hosting and bandwidth. And serving over 30 (not a handful) streaming MP3s over the course of two months to thousands of voters affects bandwidth.

"Did you kick other ads out those particular weeks to make room for your own ads?"

Newspapers typically pay staff, heat the building and maintain servers by running paid advertising at a certain ratio to content that isn't paid for. Ads have value (so do the hundreds of free listings for local bands we print each week, but that's another issue). We printed band names, photos and little paragraphs written by the bands themselves for no charge throughout the two months of this contest. Apparently you believe that's worthless, but others disagree. We pay the guys who wrote about the show, took photos, took and edited video and staffed the event.

"You tried to fuck people over to at least some extent."

See, here you are again attacking my character. Anonymously. Like a real stand-up character. I've been face to face with the people you claim I tried to "fuck over," admitted mistakes and tried to make it right, explaining myself to the people who matter directly. I've sought assurances that things were okay... in person. Still, accusations about my integrity fly in from someone I know I've never met and who I'm pretty confident is sitting a substantial distance away.

It's a toolshed move, but from what I've heard, more or less par for the course.


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