Frequency's back room

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Kyle Motor
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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby Kyle Motor » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:55 pm

Zippy: What are your ideas to change this predicament for the better?

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby supaunknown » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:52 pm

zippy wrote:Well your first question is what is 45 minutes of my time worth.
What I think its worth and what the market will pay me are two very different questions. My point is exactly that musicians get paid too little for what they do. I feel my time is worth more. I have put in countless hours of practice as many others have and to get paid 30 to 50 dollars for it is too little. I realize this makes me an egomaniac in the eyes of many of you and you would like nothing more than to bring me down a peg for daring to suggest that musicians being paid the same money or less than the rate of decades ago is not enough.
If I owned a club and went into the business of being a music club I would have to factor in my business expenses into my plan.
Most bars factor in the fact that the cost of booze and food if they have it and salaries for bartenders and staff are going to keep going up with inflation as well as rent for the space and heating costs ect. It must be nice to know they do not have to bother doing that for musician salaries. They will just stay the same year after year after year.

Good god. I feel like Pvt. Joe Bowers talking to his lawyer.
"I like money."

Zippy, it's kind of hard to quantify 'pie in the sky'. I'd love for all of us to come up with a great new system wherein everybody gets rich. I like money.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby zippy » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:55 am

The solution?
Hey if I knew that I would be rich!!
Hello is this thing on?

Seriously start with refusing to be all grateful for clubs making you take the door. At least a guarantee against the door strikes me as being a bit more equitable.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby Endo Rockstar » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:13 am

zippy wrote:The solution?
Hey if I knew that I would be rich!!
Hello is this thing on?

Seriously start with refusing to be all grateful for clubs making you take the door. At least a guarantee against the door strikes me as being a bit more equitable.


Ah yes. Wonderful idea. But how do you hold up your end of the bargain? How many people are you as the band going to "guarantee" to bring in the door. Tit for Tat after all....

I hate to be an old fart, zippy....but fuckall. Cut your teeth like everyone else. What are you? Early to mid twenties? Got the world by the balls, do ya? Good for you sport! Go change the world!

You have to understand, numb-nuts, the few clubs we have left in this town have owners that are friends and associates, of just about every band in town (sometimes referred to as a "scene" or the "music community." Notice how all the music venues that we bitched about being half-assed weasels on this very board in the early 00's have completely disappeared. If the owners wanted to get rich...chances are owning a bar and rock club isn't the way to do it. What makes you think the owner is gonna pay you better than they pay themselves or their staff?


-Dan Motor

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby zippy » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:58 pm

"Ah yes. Wonderful idea. But how do you hold up your end of the bargain? How many people are you as the band going to "guarantee" to bring in the door. Tit for Tat after all...."


My end of the bargain? So getting a guarantee at the door means i am obligated to bring in a certain number of customers? Do bartenders have an equal obligation to bring in customers? Do they not get paid on days the club has a low cashbox day? How about the waitstaff? They are still guaranted a certain level of pay for showing up and doing their jobs.

"I hate to be an old fart, zippy....but fuckall. Cut your teeth like everyone else. What are you? Early to mid twenties? Got the world by the balls, do ya? Good for you sport! Go change the world!"


Actually you have no idea what my age is.For all you know I could be a Madison music scene vet, who is sick of seeing the same pay standards year after year. But have a nice rant anyway...

"You have to understand, numb-nuts, the few clubs we have left in this town have owners that are friends and associates, of just about every band in town (sometimes referred to as a "scene" or the "music community." Notice how all the music venues that we bitched about being half-assed weasels on this very board in the early 00's have completely disappeared. If the owners wanted to get rich...chances are owning a bar and rock club isn't the way to do it. What makes you think the owner is gonna pay you better than they pay themselves or their staff?"

Dan hey I am glad if all the club owners in town are your music buddys. That makes you rather special ( something I was able to figure out from your post). And do not worry about club owners paying musicians better than they pay themselves. Musician pay is such such a small standard they would have to get paid next to nothing for that to happen. And no staff would work for them for musician wages. Sadly your argument sounds more than a little bit like the argument made by free traders when the subject of children working for pennies in sweatshops comes up.
Hey those kids should happy to be getting anything! Its better than nothing. See in capitalism someone has got to take it up the ass for those higher up the chain to make their money.


tshops


-Dan Motor[/quote]

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby zippy » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:06 pm

"Ah yes. Wonderful idea. But how do you hold up your end of the bargain? How many people are you as the band going to "guarantee" to bring in the door. Tit for Tat after all...."


My end of the bargain? So getting a guarantee at the door means i am obligated to bring in a certain number of customers? Do bartenders have an equal obligation to bring in customers? Do they not get paid on days the club has a low cashbox day? How about the waitstaff? They are still guaranted a certain level of pay for showing up and doing their jobs.

"I hate to be an old fart, zippy....but fuckall. Cut your teeth like everyone else. What are you? Early to mid twenties? Got the world by the balls, do ya? Good for you sport! Go change the world!"


Actually you have no idea what my age is.For all you know I could be a Madison music scene vet, who is sick of seeing the same pay standards year after year. But have a nice rant anyway...

"You have to understand, numb-nuts, the few clubs we have left in this town have owners that are friends and associates, of just about every band in town (sometimes referred to as a "scene" or the "music community." Notice how all the music venues that we bitched about being half-assed weasels on this very board in the early 00's have completely disappeared. If the owners wanted to get rich...chances are owning a bar and rock club isn't the way to do it. What makes you think the owner is gonna pay you better than they pay themselves or their staff?"

Dan hey I am glad if all the club owners in town are your music buddys. That makes you rather special ( something I was able to figure out from your post). And do not worry about club owners paying musicians better than they pay themselves. Musician pay is such a small standard they would have to get paid next to nothing for that to happen. And no staff would work for them for musician wages. Sadly your argument sounds more than a little bit like the argument made by free traders when the subject of children working for pennies in sweatshops comes up.
Hey those kids should happy to be getting anything! Its better than nothing. See in capitalism someone has got to take it up the ass for those higher up the chain to make their money. And musicians are the sweatshop workers of the music industry. There is a long history of the music industry exploiting musicians and getting rich off their music. But hey we get to be creative we should be happy with that right?

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby Uncle_Leaver » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:15 pm

zippy wrote:Actually you have no idea what my age is.

Judging from you lack of facility with the written word, I'm guessing 10 or 11.

I hope you play better than you write, but since you're being such a fucking crybaby here about how the world doesn't appreciate your genius, I suspect you suck.

But whateve. The world needs ditch diggers to. Now get back to that fry vat, Junior. Those happy meals aren't going to bag themselves.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby Kyle Motor » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:20 pm

zippy wrote:My end of the bargain? So getting a guarantee at the door means i am obligated to bring in a certain number of customers?

Exactly, that's how it works.

zippy wrote:Do bartenders have an equal obligation to bring in customers?

No, because they are not performers.

zippy wrote:Do they not get paid on days the club has a low cashbox day? How about the waitstaff? They are still guaranted a certain level of pay for showing up and doing their jobs.

Yup.

Zippy, honestly I agree with you on the point that it is ridiculous that musician's pay has stagnated for decades, if not decreased. But that has more to do with live music becoming an increasingly smaller part of the public's entertainment options than anything else. That's the way it is. It sucks, but whatever. I'm still gonna go out and play.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby talagaster » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:40 pm

zippy wrote:"My end of the bargain? So getting a guarantee at the door means i am obligated to bring in a certain number of customers? Do bartenders have an equal obligation to bring in customers? Do they not get paid on days the club has a low cashbox day? How about the waitstaff? They are still guaranted a certain level of pay for showing up and doing their jobs.


Um, bartenders and wait staff only make something like $2.33 an hour plus tips. If it's a show where only a few people show up, they can make signifigantly less than minimum wage. That's not even counting times when you've got a cheap crowd that doesn't tip well. It's not like they are rolling in dough.

Plus, no offense to any of my friends in the service community, but most kids don't have fantasies about being a waiter. People buy Guitar Hero, they don't buy games about serving food... except for Burger Time, that game is still awesome. Performing music is both a way to express yourself and get that some sweet public admiration and both of those are payment in a way that a fat paycheck can never be.

It's why most artists make less than most CPA's. It's why I work in a cubicle during the way versus living off of doing comedy. Artistry is a passion and I'm glad this town has venues to express it. Yes, I'd like everyone to make more money doing what they love but it isn't going to happen. I'd rather have a venue to perform at that makes me beer money for the next two weeks than have no place to perform at all.

People in this town don't just respect the Frequency and High Noon because they are there, performers of all stripes respect said venues because they will take a chance and put on awesome shows.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby Kenneth Burns » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:51 pm

zippy wrote:So getting a guarantee at the door means i am obligated to bring in a certain number of customers?


Yes, of course, if you want to keep playing for guarantees at that venue. Are you really a professional musician?

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby Endo Rockstar » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:53 pm

zippy wrote:My end of the bargain? So getting a guarantee at the door means i am obligated to bring in a certain number of customers?


Did I freakin' Stutter?

zippy wrote:Do bartenders have an equal obligation to bring in customers?


No, we are charming alcoholics who weasel our way into patrons' and owners' hearts alike. We listen to youngsters bitch about their problems in exchange for all the booze we can drink during our shift....and yes, we get the short end of the stick on wages. People in the club equal tips. If you suck and drive out our bar crowd, your 3 free drinks are going to suck.

zippy wrote:Do they not get paid on days the club has a low cashbox day? How about the waitstaff? They are still guaranted a certain level of pay for showing up and doing their jobs.


Tips dumbass. See above. Ever work an 8 hour shift for 16 bucks and no health insurance? F*ck off, Scrappy.

Dan Motor

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby swoon_queen » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:04 pm

I have to say, many of the small clubs and "listening room" style venues I've worked in or patronized have gone under. Why? They cared about providing excellent music to their appreciative clientele, thus often they started paying guarantees for established acts out of the till. Sometimes bands made their guarantees at the door, sometimes not. Paying the difference between ticket revenue and band guarantees ($100 here, $250 there) often added up to $1000 + per month. Over a year, and then another few years, those losses add up.

Nobody disagrees that the model's not ideal-- there are many variables at play, including the fact that the average barfly may have no clue what a band typically does get paid, not to mention what they should get paid, or who pays them. Hence, gripes about cover charges, no matter how expensive, often crop up.

Darwin's system is the best of both worlds. People are less inclined to turn around and leave the Frequency because they can't swallow a ticket price, meaning more money in the bar till. More money to spend taking a chance on the occasional touring band that needs a guarantee, not so much to reinforce their reputation as a great musical act, but to pay for gas and food on the way to Minneapolis or wherever they are going. I think Darwin's booking has been stellar thus far and one can tell that he's been discerning. But he's also made huge efforts to become a home for local bands in all genres. Hopefully the unique setup at the Frequency will ensure that this venue, which has an excellent green room, a reasonable room fee, wonderful sound system/stage/sound engineers, and an awesome staff, will be a lasting staple of the Madison scene.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby zippy » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:08 pm

Ahhhh yes more of the same. Shut up and be happy you get a chance to do what you do for nothing. That person who said waiters and bar tenders get 2.33 an hour is tripping. MINIMUM WAGE HELLO? And yes waiters and bar tenders are entertainers.
Ask the ones who make big ching sometime about how they flirt and pretend they actually care about whatever bullshit you are babbling on about while they are really thinking about getting more martini glasses from the dishroom.
People have fantasies about becoming huge rock stars (a model that mostly does not even exist anymore) because thats what keeps saps coming back for the expolitation. Never mind that the odds of actually achieving this feat are far greater than anyone one band member getting hit by lightening. And you guys think I Am an egomaniac? Hey never mind the stupid crazy odds our band is so brillant we will become ROCK STARS! Why the groupies will just be hanging off of us. RIGHT! The large crowds you have fantasies about in huge arenas are really groups of your friends and family hanging out in a puke stenchy bar you are getting next to nothing to play in. Sorry but thats reality.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby Kyle Motor » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:20 pm

zippy wrote:Ahhhh yes more of the same. Shut up and be happy you get a chance to do what you do for nothing. That person who said waiters and bar tenders get 2.33 an hour is tripping. MINIMUM WAGE HELLO? And yes waiters and bar tenders are entertainers.


Actually that's accurate. Minimum wage for tipped employees is different than general minimum wage rates. If you don't know that, it's pretty clear you have little to no grasp of what you're talking about.

http://www.dwd.state.wi.us/dwd/publications/erd/pdf/erd_9247_p.pdf

zippy wrote:People have fantasies about becoming huge rock stars (a model that mostly does not even exist anymore) because thats what keeps saps coming back for the expolitation. Never mind that the odds of actually achieving this feat are far greater than anyone one band member getting hit by lightening. And you guys think I Am an egomaniac? Hey never mind the stupid crazy odds our band is so brillant we will become ROCK STARS! Why the groupies will just be hanging off of us. RIGHT! The large crowds you have fantasies about in huge arenas are really groups of your friends and family hanging out in a puke stenchy bar you are getting next to nothing to play in. Sorry but thats reality.

I don't think any musician regularly posting on this board is under the assumption that they are going to be rock stars.

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Re: Frequency's back room

Postby swoon_queen » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:29 pm

zippy wrote:Ahhhh yes more of the same. Shut up and be happy you get a chance to do what you do for nothing. That person who said waiters and bar tenders get 2.33 an hour is tripping. MINIMUM WAGE HELLO?


Every musician I know who is working as a musician and is worth his or her salt does not work for nothing. But most don't consider money their sole barometer for success. And many will occasionally lend their valuable talents to a good cause (playing for free at a charitable benefit, giving all the proceeds from a show to a traveling band, etc.).

Also, tipped employees have a different (much lower) minimum wage by law. In WI, that is $2.33.


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