Who's sick of the Race Card being whipped in their face?

Who's making noise in and around Madison? What's new in the business of making music around town? Review shows and CDs here. Please keep all hype in Hype Exchange.

Are you sick of the Race card being pulled?

Yes
19
61%
No
7
23%
What are you talking about?
5
16%
 
Total votes: 31

Mikey K
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Re: Who's sick of the Race Card being whipped in their face?

Postby Mikey K » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:53 pm

[quote="ShaneDog"][quote="madt0wn"]I know we're in a predominantly white society here, but that doesn't automatically mean we're racists.[/quote]
That depends on how you define "racist". Whether they want to admit it or not, every white person has grown up benefiting from institutionalized white priviledge. If you accept this conclusion, as many people do, and realize that this system of "white priviledge" is systematically benefiting white people at the expense of people of color, you come to the conclusion that all white people are racist. [/quote]

I'm so sorry. If I blow my fucking head off, would that make you happy?

How bout all of us racist white bastards off ourselves as a sacrifice?

What a steaming pantload of shit.

Yeah, I get defensive. You know why? I get tired of getting blamed for shit I didn't do. You know what it's called to be singled out and blamed for shit you didn't do?

Uh...discrimination.

Can't we just stop pointing fingers and laying blame and discriminating against one another and get along fer chrissakes?

madt0wn
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Postby madt0wn » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:06 pm

My whole point is that I doubt the organizers of the MAMAs were sitting in a circle with white hoods on when they picked out their performers. Just like I doubt the Majestic started rubbing their greedy hands together and called the MPD to help out when they booked this fundraiser. I think shitty things happen to everybody every day and it pisses me off when people claim race is involved when it's just a regretable oversight (MAMAs) or general shitty business practice (Majestic) or gross miseducation leading to laziness (MPD).

I'll drop it from this point on. I just think in order to claim discrimination, it better damn well be undeniable that that's the case.

el guante
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Postby el guante » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:12 pm

mikey you said some similar stuff in the MAMAs thread...

no, we can't just all be happy and get along. ignoring race, or pretending that you can be "colorblind" is one of the worst attitudes that one can have (other than flaming overt racist of course). racism is very real-- in this music scene as well as everywhere-- and if we just ignore it nothing is ever going to change.

even if it were possible to be "colorblind" and treat everyone equally and not care about race... that only works on an individual level. racism and discrimination today work on much deeper levels and in order to combat them we have to directly confront them, not run off to happytime narnia everything's fine land.

in terms of this whole poll, i feel that the idea of a "race card" is an inherently LOADED term-- a kind of doublespeak for "because sometimes race is made an issue when it shouldn't be, we should NEVER talk about race." that's probably not what you're saying, but that's the way this question is kind of presented. i think that in the context of what is going on in madison right now, race IS an issue, and if anything people should be talking about it MORE.

oh and thanks for some good insight, shane and AJ...

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Re: Who's sick of the Race Card being whipped in their face?

Postby apollovox » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:18 pm

[quote="Mikey K"]I'm so sorry. If I blow my fucking head off, would that make you happy?

How bout all of us racist white bastards off ourselves as a sacrifice?

What a steaming pantload of shit.

Yeah, I get defensive. You know why? I get tired of getting blamed for shit I didn't do. You know what it's called to be singled out and blamed for shit you didn't do?

Uh...discrimination.[/quote]

That's not discrimination. Discrimination would be if, gee, as was recently demonstrated to be the case by a fellow grad student in my department, black men with no criminal record were as likely or less likely to get hired than white men with *felony convections*.
--http://www.sase.org/conf2002/papers/g013.pager.pdf

Or discrimination would be when, as was still the case in the early 1990s, " while on average black men earned nine percent less than otherwise similar white men in the private sector, the percentage difference in earnings between blacks and whites was smallest in the lowest-paid occupations and greatest [20%] in the highest-paid occupations. "
--http://www.asanet.org/media/grodsky.html

You are not being blamed for shit you didn't do. You ARE being gently reminded that you directly benefit from a long history/the continuing presence of racial inequality. What you do with that is up to you.

[quote="Mikey K"]Can't we just stop pointing fingers and laying blame and discriminating against one another and get along fer chrissakes?[/quote]

Can't you possibly consider that having grown up on the long end of this country's racial stick you might not realize how good you got it and that stystematic, institutional racism is still a big, big problem?

Smartypants
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Postby Smartypants » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:22 pm

[quote="el guante"]mikey you said some similar stuff in the MAMAs thread...

no, we can't just all be happy and get along. ignoring race, or pretending that you can be "colorblind" is one of the worst attitudes that one can have (other than flaming overt racist of course). racism is very real-- in this music scene as well as everywhere-- and if we just ignore it nothing is ever going to change.

even if it were possible to be "colorblind" and treat everyone equally and not care about race... that only works on an individual level. racism and discrimination today work on much deeper levels and in order to combat them we have to directly confront them, not run off to happytime narnia everything's fine land.

in terms of this whole poll, i feel that the idea of a "race card" is an inherently LOADED term-- a kind of doublespeak for "because sometimes race is made an issue when it shouldn't be, we should NEVER talk about race." that's probably not what you're saying, but that's the way this question is kind of presented. i think that in the context of what is going on in madison right now, race IS an issue, and if anything people should be talking about it MORE.

oh and thanks for some good insight, shane and AJ...[/quote]

Right on el guante. There is very little obvious discrimination because it's sneaky and insidious. Racism is a little different from a Webster's sort of perspective. It's overt and obvious. Discrimination is not. If I feel I've been discriminated against but you don't who's to say who's right or wrong? How do you 'prove' it?

The OJ Simpson was perfect example of the debate. There was a much higher proportion of the black population that thought he was actually innocent and the vast majority of the white population believed he was guilty.

When you are in the majority you may not see something as discrimination and when 9 out of 10 of your white friends agree with you, you think, well that claim of discrimination was nothing but 'playing the race card.' It's awfully easy to insulate yourself that way, that doesn't make it true. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes and all that. It doesn't hurt to hear someone else's perspective, even if you still don't agree with it.

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Postby pjbogart » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:41 pm

Hehe... ah, racism is such a wonderful hornet's nest... Jews are all about money, white people are a bunch of nascar watchin' coney hat wearin' rednecks, black people don't tip for shit.

Maybe different races DO, in general, behave differently. Maybe, just maybe, cultural differences between races in a largely segregated society will persist indefinitely. Maybe it has nothing to do with race at all, but what's the fucking difference?

I don't care much for rap... in fact, I don't care for it at all (I must be a racist)... but I like Jimi Hendrix (that's because he played white folk's music)... but I like jazz and blues (that's just a stereotype that black folks are supposed to play jazz and blues). Man, I give up... I just don't care for rap and I refuse to sit and defend not liking rap. White folks rapping, black folks rapping, folks with green and purple polkadots rapping... I just don't like it. I don't not like hip hop and rap, I do not like it, get off my back.

Do we set ourselves up for these arguments by making them so emotionally charged? If we didn't get so excited about it, maybe the conversations would be more rational.

Are all white people racists? Hell no. Is our society simply one great big instutionalized racist machine? Yeah, pretty much. It's true, if the colors were switched in our little gig problem, we wouldn't be having this conversation... but the Tammy Baldwin thing is irrelevant... no one would try that on Tammy Baldwin unless you wanted to be picking lawyers out of your fruit of the looms for the next 5 years. Was it racially motivated or is the guy just an asshole who fucks over anyone who can't defend themselves easily? I don't know... I'd have to see the stats on prior incidents.

Oh, and I just love this little racism/discrimination argument that gets batted around. It's so very Wittgensteinian. The argument is that racism refers to the institution of oppression... all white people are part of it and are, therefore, racists. Black people can't be racists because they don't live in a society where they can oppress white people. But that's not really how people understand the term "racism." Most people, myself included, think that racism refers to an individual's belief that "their" people are generally better than the "other" people. If you spend enough time around people of different races, you get the idea that racism is almost human nature... as is sexism and musical snobbery. You can't really have an argument about "racism" unless you agree on the definition.

Ah, and it's SOOOO very tiresome.

suicidalClyde
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Postby suicidalClyde » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:37 am

White Privilege does not equal racism. Racism is an ideology. Someone can benefit from white privilege and not be a racist, as a white person really has little choice in the matter. It's not like you can go to a job interview and say, "please evaluate me like I'm a minority."

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Postby ShaneDog » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:43 am

suicidalClyde wrote:White Privilege does not equal racism. Racism is an ideology. Someone can benefit from white privilege and not be a racist, as a white person really has little choice in the matter. It's not like you can go to a job interview and say, "please evaluate me like I'm a minority."

White privilege is a form of racism.

Racism:

* an underlying belief in the superiority of one race over another and its right to dominate

* may take three main forms (though all work together to maintain a system of oppression):

- Individual Racism-individual acts that overtly reflect racist attitudes/beliefs. This is the easiest one to identify. Ie. racial slurs, jokes, etc.

- Systemic Racism and Institutional Racism-organizational policies and practices at the structural level that indirectly target communities of colour and maintain white privilege. Ie. racism in the criminal justice system (police profiling); racism in the educational system (all white authors on a course reading list.)

- Cultural Racism-value system that supports and allows discriminatory actions against racially and ethnoculturally marginalized communities. Ie. white privilege.

suicidalClyde
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Postby suicidalClyde » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:53 am

You're not processing what I'm saying.

Racism can be institutional, that does not mean that it is individual. To say otherwise is to imply that an individual is defined by the institution.

pjbogart
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Postby pjbogart » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:13 am

I think that's the whole "Wittgensteinian" thing. Man, I used plenty of charged comments and didn't catch any fire?

Actually, I believe pretty strongly that we still have a significant race problem in the US and it's so institutionalized that it's silly to believe it will be over tomorrow. Much of it is cultural in nature and that just indicates probable persistence.

I don't resent the race card that much, though I often disagree with the statements where it's used. My general feelings toward the "race card" are similar to my feelings toward animal rights advocates who let a bunch of research monkeys go in the middle of manhattan. Yeah, the act was kind of stupid and they probably killed all of the monkeys anyway, but extremism generally increases awareness and pulls people toward the center. That is... you don't need to agree with the release of the monkeys... just getting the exposure (how the monkeys were being treated/tested) helps to increase awareness of the mistreatment of laboratory animals.

The "race card" can have similar effects. Mr Mohammed was just sentenced to death. His crime was almost unspeakable. He was a black man. Someone pulling the "race card" to say that Mr. Mohammed was framed by "the man" is really quite ludicrous. But wait... now I'm seeing all kinds of statistics about black men receiving the death penalty vs. white men receiving the death penalty. It's hard to look at death penalty statistics and deny that there are some inequities (man, what a tame word for killing someone). Although the "race card" is totally irrelevant to the DC sniper killings, it may help a few more people realize that we have a problem in this country with the way the judicial system treats black defendants other than Mr. Mohammed. Mission accomplished.

So the "race card" may be annoying to people, but it has it's purposes... you just have to dig a bit.

ShaneDog
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Postby ShaneDog » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:19 am

suicidalClyde wrote:You're not processing what I'm saying.

Racism can be institutional, that does not mean that it is individual. To say otherwise is to imply that an individual is defined by the institution.

I wasn't trying to equate individual racism with institutional racism but I do think the two are related. If you're white, and realize that white privilege exists and that you benefit from it and do nothing about it, you are guilty of perpetuating racism. Just because you aren't overtly racist doesn't mean you aren't racist. Failure to act against oppression is in a way participating in oppression.

Also, it is quite possible to act in a racist manner without being aware that this is what one is doing.

And finally, all people have racist attitudes and the more we talk about these attitudes and the more we are aware of them, the more capable we are of addressing and solving the problem of racism.

Mikey K
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Postby Mikey K » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:39 am

yawwwwwwn....

Ok. It's good to talk about race and ethnicity in pro-active, positive, constructive ways.

It's destructive, however, to fly the race card as an excuse for just about anything, just about all the time.

And reverse discrimination and punitive actions are still discrimination. Two wrongs don't make a right.

That being said, shut up and play yer whatever.

madt0wn
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Postby madt0wn » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:23 pm

ShaneDog wrote:I wasn't trying to equate individual racism with institutional racism but I do think the two are related. If you're white, and realize that white privilege exists and that you benefit from it and do nothing about it, you are guilty of perpetuating racism. Just because you aren't overtly racist doesn't mean you aren't racist. Failure to act against oppression is in a way participating in oppression.


So I'm racist because my parents make a decent living and sent me to college?

So when I'm up for a job next time and the offer it to me and I don't say, 'Hey, give it to the Latin guy.' that means I'm racist? I think that's more like Darwinism, ME FIRST. If I'm better for the job, give it to me. Now, if I know that I was less qualified and only offered the job because I'm white, that's wrong.

Your statement is quite broad and generally incorrect. Jut because I'm not personally hunting down Bin Laden doesn't mean I enjoy terrorism.

suicidalClyde
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Postby suicidalClyde » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:27 pm

Out of curiosity, how would you suggest one goes about doing something about it. White Privilege is rather a nebulous idea. While we can see it on a macro level it would be hard to identify it on a micro level. Calling someone racist because they aren't in control is not a healthy way to approach healing is it?

jeffjames
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Postby jeffjames » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:49 pm

of course i'm not sick of people "pulling the race card". what a ridiculous topic, what do you expect, a bunch of people jumping in saying, oh yah, black people overreacting, yah yah, we're not racists. black people have it damn hard in this country. disenfranchise a group of people for hundreds of years, treat them like crap, and of course they are going to feel sensitive in regard to how you treat them. get over yourself, the next time somebody "pulls a race card" calm down and have a little empathy. i bet you're one of those people who doesn't mind laughing along to a good racial joke every now and then when your buddies bring one up. ugh.


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